Author Topic: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget  (Read 7224 times)

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Offline MajorClay

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2017, 11:07:40 pm »
Outstanding, about time!

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2017, 11:14:45 pm »
Look, Trump Fans,  I will admit this proposal is a good start.  Forgive me for not prostrating myself in awe of your hero.  But you must understand there will be considerable pushback from the usual suspects in congress.  They are not about to let go of the entitlements they use to secure votes in their districts.  If half the cuts make it through, it will be a miracle.  Of course, I will rejoice if at least some of the cuts make it.   But we have to be realistic.  It's going to be a tough battle for whatever reductions we get.


This is true,  but does that not make congress the villain instead of Trump? 

Whatever Congress does,  this President has submitted some cuts,  many if not all that, we can agree on. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2017, 12:45:33 am »
So what! Cut it anyway!  Do you imagine that the states can't figure out where they have flooding problems without the fedgov?
Ultimately zoning and permitting have to pass muster at the county/city level anyway.
While that doesn't mean it will be done wisely, that's where the rubber meets the road.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2017, 12:47:48 am »
I can't believe the state would allow an upstream dam/levee to be built that has a negative impact on anyone downstream.  Seems like that would just lead to a ton of lawsuits and insurance claims, not to mention possible loss of life.
Normally, no. But if You are on the Missouri in one state and someone builds levees in another that can impact folks miles away. Still, the States along the river could establish multi state compacts to deal with the issues affecting the watershed.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2017, 12:49:04 am »
I'm not really arguing one way or the other that this is within FedGov pervue.  Certainly any state could set up a program within some existing department to manage and maintain the FIRMs.  But, doing away with it completely makes no sense.  The information is absolutely needed for future safe development.
The Corps of Engineers should have all that data FWIW, as it has asserted jurisdiction over all navigable waterways in the US.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2017, 12:50:53 am »
Ultimately zoning and permitting have to pass muster at the county/city level anyway.
While that doesn't mean it will be done wisely, that's where the rubber meets the road.

I would much rather see it at the state level.  That makes more sense given that watersheds don't follow county boundaries.  I think it would be more consistent.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2017, 12:51:15 am »
Something similar was demanded during the GOP ObamaCare 'Repeal and Replace' effort, that we should be positive in our words to the efforts they were making at 'fixing' ObamaCare.

I do not hold my breath when it comes to government 'fixing' anything or eliminating any spending.

As Reagan said, "A government program is the closest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth".
The time to provide input is when the iron is in the forge, not after it is quenched.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2017, 12:51:50 am »
The Corps of Engineers should have all that data FWIW, as it has asserted jurisdiction over all navigable waterways in the US.

Flood zones aren't necessarily navigable waters though.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2017, 12:54:39 am »
Flood zones aren't necessarily navigable waters though.
No, but river flows and flood data should be. If the crest is at X feet, and the river is within its banks at X-n, then anything within n feet, topographically, of the normal river level that isn't well protected will flood. GIS data should enable the rest to be mapped without too much trouble.

Recall "navigable waters" have the traditional definition of anything which will float a log.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 12:55:39 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2017, 01:02:43 am »
No, but river flows and flood data should be. If the crest is at X feet, and the river is within its banks at X-n, then anything within n feet, topographically, of the normal river level that isn't well protected will flood. GIS data should enable the rest to be mapped without too much trouble.

Recall "navigable waters" have the traditional definition of anything which will float a log.

But, flood zones aren't always associated with rivers.  Some places are just really low and have poor soil drainage and/or high water table and during a large storm event will flood.  The FIRM maps show flood zones out to areas that flood for a 500 year storm and those areas must be accounted for if developed within.


Offline the_doc

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2017, 01:17:35 am »
I would much rather see it at the state level.  That makes more sense given that watersheds don't follow county boundaries.  I think it would be more consistent.

Flooding potential in topographically complex scenarios involving commercial and real estate development projects are always evaluated by extraordinarily tedious computer programs (stochastic hydrology) that ignore county lines for purposes of studying any given area of concern.  I believe adjacent counties would always cooperate fully in these studies.  (Besides, civil engineering blunders that back up flood waters into other counties due to inadequate water shedding would be blunders that Professional Civil Engineers don't want to make.)

 @Smokin Joe
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 01:19:27 am by the_doc »

Online DB

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2017, 01:19:19 am »

This is true,  but does that not make congress the villain instead of Trump? 

Whatever Congress does,  this President has submitted some cuts,  many if not all that, we can agree on.

Mostly yes, but... Trump is the leader of the party and if he's serious about these cuts he need to make the case publicly with force to put pressure on congress. That's his job.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2017, 01:33:18 am »
Flooding potential in topographically complex scenarios involving commercial and real estate development projects are always evaluated by extraordinarily tedious computer programs (stochastic hydrology) that ignore county lines for purposes of studying any given area of concern.  I believe adjacent counties would always cooperate fully in these studies.  (Besides, civil engineering blunders that back up flood waters into other counties due to inadequate water shedding would be blunders that Professional Civil Engineers don't want to make.)

 @Smokin Joe

Speaking as a civil engineer, that would be a horror for permitting.  You would have to submit to and get approval from any county that the overall watershed covers, as opposed to currently FEMA for the flood map revision approval, or as I suggested above the state.  Having used the software to do such modeling,  I would not describe it as extraordinarily tedious, but perhaps that is just my perspective of it.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2017, 01:34:02 am »
But, flood zones aren't always associated with rivers.  Some places are just really low and have poor soil drainage and/or high water table and during a large storm event will flood.  The FIRM maps show flood zones out to areas that flood for a 500 year storm and those areas must be accounted for if developed within.
I agree.
Any area that has historically flooded should be documented already, but that does not mean new ones cannot be created by construction, highway projects, and alterations to surface permeability.
Topographic contour data should be available in GIS format or hard copy as well, which permit the delineation of drainages, whether highly organized, estuaries, or inland basins.

While the Corps may not have everything, I'd wager the 'intermittent wetlands' are documented either there, or at EPA who has had dreams of (and actual accounts of) suing people for filling low spots in their yard after deeming that low spot to be an 'intermittent wetland'. Soils data should be able to confirm or deny wetland status in the past.

The 100, 200, and 500 year flood plains are an actuarial feature, based on topographic information and anticipated flood volumes.
Anything which impedes the flow of water through the watershed at a specific volume must be taken into account, whether levees, bridges, culverts, or the like because it can create impoundments at that flow rate and above which would not exist at normal flows, that complicates the problem, because the duration of high flow states will affect the amount of water caught in that and how far it spreads over any given topography.
Overtopping or destruction of those impounding features can relieve the impoundment beyond that stage, but there will still be additional areas inundated as the water rises.
 
It is complex enough that you'd want competent hydrologists working on the problem, just from the viewpoint of the impact of additional structures or impermeable surfaces changing the flow characteristics of the watershed, be that a river or a natural (or even artificial) impoundment.

Those personnel will cost money, and it is more likely that competent personnel could batter be retained at the State Level and have the resources available to adequately assess the impact of proposed construction, than at the local level, unless that locale is a major urban area. .
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 01:34:46 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2017, 01:40:14 am »
impermeable surfaces changing the flow characteristics of the watershed

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot? @Smokin Joe
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2017, 01:40:20 am »
I agree.
Any area that has historically flooded should be documented already, but that does not mean new ones cannot be created by construction, highway projects, and alterations to surface permeability.
Topographic contour data should be available in GIS format or hard copy as well, which permit the delineation of drainages, whether highly organized, estuaries, or inland basins.

While the Corps may not have everything, I'd wager the 'intermittent wetlands' are documented either there, or at EPA who has had dreams of (and actual accounts of) suing people for filling low spots in their yard after deeming that low spot to be an 'intermittent wetland'. Soils data should be able to confirm or deny wetland status in the past.

The 100, 200, and 500 year flood plains are an actuarial feature, based on topographic information and anticipated flood volumes.
Anything which impedes the flow of water through the watershed at a specific volume must be taken into account, whether levees, bridges, culverts, or the like because it can create impoundments at that flow rate and above which would not exist at normal flows, that complicates the problem, because the duration of high flow states will affect the amount of water caught in that and how far it spreads over any given topography.
Overtopping or destruction of those impounding features can relieve the impoundment beyond that stage, but there will still be additional areas inundated as the water rises.
 
It is complex enough that you'd want competent hydrologists working on the problem, just from the viewpoint of the impact of additional structures or impermeable surfaces changing the flow characteristics of the watershed, be that a river or a natural (or even artificial) impoundment.

Those personnel will cost money, and it is more likely that competent personnel could batter be retained at the State Level and have the resources available to adequately assess the impact of proposed construction, than at the local level, unless that locale is a major urban area. .

If you've looked at a FIRM, which it sounds like you have, you will recall that many areas are designated flood zone but do not have an elevation associated with them.  The civil engineer for whatever project to be built should be the one doing the work.  The state level, currently the federal level, that we are talking about would be reviewing and essentially agreeing or disagreeing or in most cases asking for further information.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2017, 01:50:43 am »
If you've looked at a FIRM, which it sounds like you have, you will recall that many areas are designated flood zone but do not have an elevation associated with them.  The civil engineer for whatever project to be built should be the one doing the work.  The state level, currently the federal level, that we are talking about would be reviewing and essentially agreeing or disagreeing or in most cases asking for further information.
That information may not be displayed in that format, but it is readily available, and with decent GPS and a 4-wheeler, can be obtained just about anywhere if the terrain has been altered. THis is why I brought up GIS, it allows overlay of different data sets, and could facilitate evaluation of a site or the effects of alterations both upstream and down, or in a localized area.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2017, 02:12:15 am »
That information may not be displayed in that format, but it is readily available, and with decent GPS and a 4-wheeler, can be obtained just about anywhere if the terrain has been altered. THis is why I brought up GIS, it allows overlay of different data sets, and could facilitate evaluation of a site or the effects of alterations both upstream and down, or in a localized area.

Readily available for us (civil eng),  when it gets to project level, generally means survey of the site, but topo maps can give adequate info for some rough estimates, or if you're doing a huge watershed analysis.  But my experience has been that huge watershed analysis are rare.  For any development you would want a survey and the permitting entity would require one.  Again, speaking within Florida only.  The big watersheds here are and have been defined for quite some time.  It's really just site development that results in FIRM map revisions and on occassion the development is far enough away from a defined flood elevation that we get the geotech engineers to look at the survey and then go out and dig holes and then work out what the actual flood elevation is.

But, back to the FEMA FIRMs, it should be a fairly simple thing to move those to a state level, but yes will involve some state funding to maintain.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2017, 02:19:18 am »
Hooo...

Y'all are way up pver my head. Didn't know it was all that complicated.
As a landscaper for many years, it was covered in two simple rules:

1. Water goes downhill.
2. Green side up.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2017, 04:22:57 am »
Hooo...

Y'all are way up pver my head. Didn't know it was all that complicated.
As a landscaper for many years, it was covered in two simple rules:

1. Water goes downhill.
2. Green side up.
888high58888
Those are the basics, all right!  Another way to think of it, though, is as surface plumbing. It backs up every now and then.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 04:23:44 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2017, 05:25:25 am »
Hooo...

Y'all are way up pver my head. Didn't know it was all that complicated.
As a landscaper for many years, it was covered in two simple rules:

1. Water goes downhill.
2. Green side up.

Hah, see, it ain't all that complicated.  Our professional mantra is $hit flows downhill.  But generally, lots of blabber about specific things that don't really matter much to the topic, except to perhaps explain why not everything can or should be dealt with at the local level.  Though certainly much that is currently overseen at the Fed level is nonsense.

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Offline thackney

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2017, 11:47:20 am »
I can't believe the state would allow an upstream dam/levee to be built that has a negative impact on anyone downstream.  Seems like that would just lead to a ton of lawsuits and insurance claims, not to mention possible loss of life.

We have many dams that were built for flood control as the justification of the cost.

Now, decades later, many of those are operated to maintain water supply, keeping them as full as possible and negating the flood control capability.  The cash flow of being able to sell water, especially during multi-year droughts is a siren call.

Levees have been built in flood plains for more housing near urban areas.  Although they do retain water as you described for the area they cover, they no longer allow the river to swell outwards during a heavy rain event.  That area that previously flood is now protected and the river piles up higher creating problems in other areas.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Here are the 66 programs eliminated in Trump's budget
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2017, 11:50:42 am »
The government is in the flood insurance business because insurance companies are not willing to sell flood insurance to people who live in flood plains. 

I think the history is worse.  Companies would sell the insurance then go into bankruptcy after a flood event providing no insurance for the premiums paid.

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