Author Topic: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?  (Read 61111 times)

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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #800 on: May 20, 2017, 12:02:09 am »
Lots of Innuit have freezers, so obviously there is a market. "And you only have to plug it in 6 months out of the year if you set it on the porch...."

What really needs to be reformed is the way people qualify for benefits, and how that changes. As is, if you make a dollar over your Medicaid cutoff, you're on your own. If you make too much, the SNAP goes away. There is a point where the benefits are not able to be replaced by minor increases in income, but those minor increases will cost all the benefits. That needs to be tapered to a more graduated transition, or it provides a disincentive to work harder. It was like working overtime (when a guy could get in overtime) and seeing it go to taxes after just a couple of hours. So, if the option was there, you only worked enough overtime to maximize the take-home, and not so much it cost you.

30 years ago (it hurts to be able to say that, I'm not THAT old am I???), I knew women who intentionally got pregnant at regular intervals.  As long as they had a child under X years old, they got the free apartment and benefits for the whole clan.  They discussed this quite openly.

I have to say I never have understood the idea that overtime "costs you" at some point.  At the end of the year, your taxes are based on AGI.  The overtime bonus is taxed at exactly the same rate as your base income.  My guess is that for some the additional income caused their employer to withhold more (I don't know how withholding works), but at the end of the year you made X and the feds want Y.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #801 on: May 20, 2017, 01:11:36 am »
30 years ago (it hurts to be able to say that, I'm not THAT old am I???), I knew women who intentionally got pregnant at regular intervals.  As long as they had a child under X years old, they got the free apartment and benefits for the whole clan.  They discussed this quite openly.

I have to say I never have understood the idea that overtime "costs you" at some point.  At the end of the year, your taxes are based on AGI.  The overtime bonus is taxed at exactly the same rate as your base income.  My guess is that for some the additional income caused their employer to withhold more (I don't know how withholding works), but at the end of the year you made X and the feds want Y.
Living hand to mouth all the annualization in the world doesn't change the dip in cash flow. Making too much put a guy into the next bracket, which meant higher withholding rates and if you just crossed the threshhold, your take home pay actually got a little smaller than 40 hours worth. IIRC, and this was the '70s, the crossover point for me was 46 hours a week where the time and a half came in at less than regular pay by the time the taxes were taken out.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:12:51 am by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Bigun

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #802 on: May 20, 2017, 01:19:21 am »
30 years ago (it hurts to be able to say that, I'm not THAT old am I???), I knew women who intentionally got pregnant at regular intervals.  As long as they had a child under X years old, they got the free apartment and benefits for the whole clan.  They discussed this quite openly.

I have to say I never have understood the idea that overtime "costs you" at some point.  At the end of the year, your taxes are based on AGI.  The overtime bonus is taxed at exactly the same rate as your base income.  My guess is that for some the additional income caused their employer to withhold more (I don't know how withholding works), but at the end of the year you made X and the feds want Y.

Which is one of the many reasons taxing income is so antiethical for supposed free people.  We should be taxing our consumption instead of our efforts!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #803 on: May 20, 2017, 01:48:15 am »
Which is one of the many reasons taxing income is so antiethical for supposed free people.  We should be taxing our consumption instead of our efforts!

?? Consumption of energy and goods?  That would give Big Brother tremendous control over our lives.  No tax or flat tax, period.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #804 on: May 20, 2017, 01:51:23 am »
?? Consumption of energy and goods?  That would give Big Brother tremendous control over our lives.  No tax or flat tax, period.

Agreed.  Flat tax.  If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for the US Treasury.

Besides, why expand the ATF to the ATF-and everything else sold under the sun.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #805 on: May 20, 2017, 01:57:25 am »
?? Consumption of energy and goods?  That would give Big Brother tremendous control over our lives.  No tax or flat tax, period.

Absolutely the opposite!  You are entirely in control of what you buy.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #806 on: May 20, 2017, 01:59:25 am »
Agreed.  Flat tax.  If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for the US Treasury.

Besides, why expand the ATF to the ATF-and everything else sold under the sun.

If you are talking about  a flat rate income tax it's no sale with me.  No income tax period!  Read the link in my tag line.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Hoodat

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #807 on: May 20, 2017, 02:05:10 am »
If you are talking about  a flat rate income tax it's no sale with me.  No income tax period!  Read the link in my tag line.

Then we will agree to disagree.  I would rather have an employer with an incentive to account for taxes deducted from my income than to expand the power of government to provide incentive at the point of a gun to both buyer and seller.

I understand your point, really I do.  I just prefer a flat tax on income over a national sales tax that invites a black market economy.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Bigun

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #808 on: May 20, 2017, 02:11:59 am »
Then we will agree to disagree.  I would rather have an employer with an incentive to account for taxes deducted from my income than to expand the power of government to provide incentive at the point of a gun to both buyer and seller.

I understand your point, really I do.  I just prefer a flat tax on income over a national sales tax that invites a black market economy.

Texas has a very large economy and relies on a sales tax without any problems.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #809 on: May 20, 2017, 02:40:30 am »
Texas has a very large economy and relies on a sales tax without any problems.

To tax consumable; we will be taxed to death. We already pay for electricity, water and food, etc. I don't want the government taxing me for using electricity and then taxing me again if I use too much.  Same with water. Same with food, etc.  I don't want to go to the grocery store and the government telling me I am only allotted 2 apples, 2 bananas, a gallon of milk a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter and jelly and anything over that not only will I have to pay the taxes on but have to pay additional taxes for going over my allotment.  I could go on, but point made.

Right now there are chip readers on credit and debit cards ... they already know what you are purchasing, where you are purchasing, how much you are purchasing and the frequency of those purchases.   Throw in a national ID card at the situation that you will have to use to be able to make everything you purchase and Big Brother will completely control your life.  As an example, you won't be able to use more the 3 gallons of water a day without paying a penalty tax .... the list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Flat tax of 10%.  No state, federal, income or sales tax.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 02:42:43 am by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #810 on: May 20, 2017, 02:48:26 am »
Texas has a very large economy and relies on a sales tax without any problems.

I have full confidence in the State of Texas collecting a sales tax without imposing undue tyranny upon its citizenry.  I have zero confidence in a central government based in Maryland collecting a much greater portion of sales tax in Texas.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline txradioguy

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #811 on: May 20, 2017, 02:57:20 am »
Honestly the Fed needs to set up a flat tax 10% for everyone.

Then leave it up to the states to determine tax rates...sales or income based to make up the difference based on their own budgetary needs. That way they have the money they need to spend.

This whole give everything to the Fed then wait like a bunch of baby birds with your mouth open waiting to get your share is stupid.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #812 on: May 20, 2017, 03:09:32 am »
To tax consumable; we will be taxed to death. We already pay for electricity, water and food, etc. I don't want the government taxing me for using electricity and then taxing me again if I use too much.  Same with water. Same with food, etc.  I don't want to go to the grocery store and the government telling me I am only allotted 2 apples, 2 bananas, a gallon of milk a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter and jelly and anything over that not only will I have to pay the taxes on but have to pay additional taxes for going over my allotment.  I could go on, but point made.


@libertybele

I will agree with @Bigun .
The salient difference is in this: A flat RETAIL ONLY tax ties the goverment to the market. if things are going badly, it is suddenly in the interest pf the government to keep the economy going - without happy campers spending their money on consumables, the government gets nothing.

In the case of withholdings from your employer, the government couldn't give a rusty crap as to whether you have money to spend at the end or not. They get their rake right off the top, instead of getting their cut at the end.

Now, I am for no tax on food items or medical items, making them basically write-off. I dont know if land and first homes should be exempt... But you get the basic idea.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #813 on: May 20, 2017, 03:17:02 am »
When will Republicans Dump Trump?


3:24 pm, August 14th, 2019

(You heard it here 1st)

Offline Bigun

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #814 on: May 20, 2017, 03:30:34 am »
To tax consumable; we will be taxed to death. We already pay for electricity, water and food, etc. I don't want the government taxing me for using electricity and then taxing me again if I use too much.  Same with water. Same with food, etc.  I don't want to go to the grocery store and the government telling me I am only allotted 2 apples, 2 bananas, a gallon of milk a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter and jelly and anything over that not only will I have to pay the taxes on but have to pay additional taxes for going over my allotment.  I could go on, but point made.

Right now there are chip readers on credit and debit cards ... they already know what you are purchasing, where you are purchasing, how much you are purchasing and the frequency of those purchases.   Throw in a national ID card at the situation that you will have to use to be able to make everything you purchase and Big Brother will completely control your life.  As an example, you won't be able to use more the 3 gallons of water a day without paying a penalty tax .... the list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Flat tax of 10%.  No state, federal, income or sales tax.

Belle I'm sorry to inform you that you are very badly misinformed on this issue and I BEG you to follow the link below and educate yourself!

https://fairtax.org/about/how-fairtax-works

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #815 on: May 20, 2017, 03:37:01 am »
I have full confidence in the State of Texas collecting a sales tax without imposing undue tyranny upon its citizenry.  I have zero confidence in a central government based in Maryland collecting a much greater portion of sales tax in Texas.

That's one of the beauties of the Fairtax @Hoodat!

Under that system the federal government would no longer collect taxes from individuals or retailers at all!  45 of the 50 states already have sales taxes in place and under the fairtax retailers would be compensated for adding two or three lines of code to their cash register programs and the states would be compensated for remitting the appropriate amount to the federal treasury!

https://fairtax.org/about/how-fairtax-works

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #816 on: May 20, 2017, 03:45:31 am »
Tax consumption, not incomes. Don't punish savers.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #817 on: May 20, 2017, 03:48:27 am »
Tax consumption, not incomes. Don't punish savers.

VERY important.

Doesn't tax inheritance either

Offline Mom MD

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #818 on: May 20, 2017, 04:13:48 am »
Tax consumption, not incomes. Don't punish savers.

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« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 04:14:31 am by Mom MD »
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Offline EC

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #819 on: May 20, 2017, 05:47:48 am »
To tax consumable; we will be taxed to death. We already pay for electricity, water and food, etc. I don't want the government taxing me for using electricity and then taxing me again if I use too much.  Same with water. Same with food, etc.  I don't want to go to the grocery store and the government telling me I am only allotted 2 apples, 2 bananas, a gallon of milk a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter and jelly and anything over that not only will I have to pay the taxes on but have to pay additional taxes for going over my allotment.  I could go on, but point made.

Right now there are chip readers on credit and debit cards ... they already know what you are purchasing, where you are purchasing, how much you are purchasing and the frequency of those purchases.   Throw in a national ID card at the situation that you will have to use to be able to make everything you purchase and Big Brother will completely control your life.  As an example, you won't be able to use more the 3 gallons of water a day without paying a penalty tax .... the list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #820 on: May 20, 2017, 06:00:19 am »
Pay cash. Simple solution, 100% legal, and 100% untraceable.

Another decade and cash will be gone... My brother says that back east, folks are already more far likely to have credit or debit cards than cash... Not so much here yet, but it is inexorably coming.

and then EVERY transaction will be tracked and analyzed.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #821 on: May 20, 2017, 09:43:19 am »
@libertybele

I will agree with @Bigun .
The salient difference is in this: A flat RETAIL ONLY tax ties the goverment to the market. if things are going badly, it is suddenly in the interest pf the government to keep the economy going - without happy campers spending their money on consumables, the government gets nothing.
The problem I see with that is the government then stepping in, decrying 'hoarders', and making more laws. They're pushing us to go cashless, and some people are buying in. Not me, I like cash. It works, almost everyone will take it, no record of the transaction. But with tracking goods entirely possible, it could become illegal to stock up on a loss leader on sale at a store, which is how we buy things. It goes on sale, we know we'll use it, we hit it hard, and coupon it too, if we can while it is on sale. My wife shakes her head when I walk out of a store having bought $280 worth of groceries (normal prices) for $120, but she loves it and none of the stores around these parts have double coupon days or I'd really get out cheap.
The problem with a consumption tax, is that energy, for instance, could be taxed on a "average consumption " basis, with increases in rates above those average levels. At this latitude, 'average' climates are significantly warmer, and heat is not an option in winter. THe ability to gimmick with a consumption tax like has been done with the income tas could be even more onerous and eventually totalitarian.

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In the case of withholdings from your employer, the government couldn't give a rusty crap as to whether you have money to spend at the end or not. They get their rake right off the top, instead of getting their cut at the end.

Now, I am for no tax on food items or medical items, making them basically write-off. I don't know if land and first homes should be exempt... But you get the basic idea.
I agree, in that if there was a Federal Sales tax, Food, Water, medical care, primary housing, and energy for the home should be untaxed. No surtax on fuel, there is already a fuel tax. Taxes on new items only, and land is 'used', so no tax on land sales or existing homes. Tax building materials or new items constructed from recycled/repurposed materials, because the end product is 'new'. There are those who like 'prebate' schemes, but anytime the government issues a check there will be fraud. Just don't tax the essentials, and that whole bureaucracy is eliminated along with the potential for someone getting extra checks or stealing someone else's.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #822 on: May 20, 2017, 10:25:59 am »

And what do you suppose happens at that point?   Call me paranoid,  but I believe it will be much bloodshed.
No, I won't call you paranoid. Food riots and the like become a very real possibility. At that point, if a person hasn't already, there's a decision to make about just what lengths a person is willing to go to to protect their family, themselves, their stuff. It's pretty much a given the first ones up the walk will be unarmed women and/or hungry little children. Do you feed the kids who are likely scouts for adults, even larger groups? Or turn them all away proclaiming you don't have anything?

Selco is a good one to read on that sort of thing.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #823 on: May 22, 2017, 11:52:44 am »
I don't know, frankly. It might remove some of them, too. Maybe @thackney knows.

@Cyber Liberty  @Smokin Joe

I'm going to say don't add water to your gasoline and leave it at that.  I know I'll never do that to gasoline I run in my vehicles.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: When Will Republicans Dump Trump?
« Reply #824 on: May 22, 2017, 04:07:47 pm »
@Cyber Liberty  @Smokin Joe

I'm going to say don't add water to your gasoline and leave it at that.  I know I'll never do that to gasoline I run in my vehicles.
Well, this was for small engines (I really can't imagine doing it 35 gallons at a time). The ethanol will kill them anyway, I'd be willing to try it if I had to. The idea is that the water will settle out, and to separate the two before you use the fuel.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 04:09:10 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis