Author Topic: Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding  (Read 26331 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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So I guess if it's the law, then slavery is OK.  Good to know.

Back when the law said that slavery was OK, slavery was OK, and it continued to be OK until the law said that it wasn't.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Mom MD

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If you were a Jewish baker and a member of the local chapter of American Nazis entered the shop and said he'd like a cake for his group's annual "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler" party, would it be okay for the government to require you to use your artistic and culinary talents in furtherance of that celebration?

The government has already said muslim employees cannot be forced to handle pork or alcohol.  So how is it Christian businesses can be forced to partake in something equally as repugnant to them?  The law is a giant double standard here.  It is a shame Christians will be forced out of any wedding service related industries
God is still in control

Offline TomSea

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Back when the law said that slavery was OK, slavery was OK, and it continued to be OK until the law said that it wasn't.

And 700,000 Americans were killed, can't leave that out.

Offline roamer_1

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Open a business without a license, then make the argument that you don't need a license because your business is an extension of your person.

Let us know how you financed the fines and legal fees.

Actually I don't need a license of any kind unless I am employing people. I don't need anything but a name. and a dba.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Yes, Marriage is between a man and a woman, I discriminate, I also discriminate if I want to listen to rock instead of classical, drive a ford instead of a toyota, eat a hamburger instead of a hotdog,  that all comes down to discriminating as well.

Discrimination may not always be bad, we say a person has discriminating tastes and things like that.

The government now recognizes those marriages, citizens should not have to.

Citizens don't have to, but licensed for-profit bussiness endeavors that cater to the public can't act in violation of public laws that govern business practices if those laws dicate that the business may not deny service based on a range of criteria. This business is licensed to oiperate in an area where the existing laws says that it may not deny service to anyone based on sexual orientation.

If you believe that operatiung your business under that law would compromise your religious beliefs, then your choice is to go elsewhere where the laws on conducting business are more to your liking.

What's so difficult to understand about that?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Actually I don't need a license of any kind unless I am employing people. I don't need anything but a name. and a dba.

According to the Small Business Administration, virtually every business needs some sort of license or permit to operate legally, so, once again, go ahead and start a business without adehering to existing permitting and licensing laws and let me know how you work things out with all the different level of government that will come looking for you.

And by the way... that DBA (Doing Business As) separates you, the individual, from your business and puts a wall of separation between you, the person, and the business in order to (among others) protect you from the possibility of negative financial fallout from a failing business.

Sort of puts your whole "an extension of me" thing out to pasture.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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And 700,000 Americans were killed, can't leave that out.

Sometimes laws change without people dying to push the change through.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 04:13:50 am by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline roamer_1

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According to the Small Business Administration, virtually every business needs some sort of license or permit to operate legally, so, once again, go ahead and start a business without adehering to existing permitting and licensing laws and let me know how you work things out with all the different level of government that will come looking for you.


Nope. I am operating a sole proprietorship under my own name. Everything is in order, I have no insurance except on vehicles, and I have no licenses or modifications with the exception of comp exemption with the state.
I file simple sole prop/sched C taxes with state and fed, and have been exactly so for years.

I was just in to see the IRS on another matter and everything is fine with them. Likewise state as of early spring last year.

Quote
And by the way... that DBA (Doing Business As) separates you, the individual, from your business and puts a wall of separation between you, the person, and the business in order to (among others) protect you from the possibility of negative financial fallout from a failing business.

Sort of puts your whole "an extension of me" thing out to pasture.

Nope - Already been there. There is no 'wall of separation', even when I was corporate. As a sole prop with my name on the door, I do not even need a dba.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 04:25:48 am by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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So there!  Let the religious be oppressed and silenced so they can sear even the hint of a conscience among the electorate.  And let the government force religious individuals to violate their own conscience and to disobey the God the serve.  It brings them great joy to see that happen.

There is nothing new under the sun. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
Decadence has long been the bane of Republics. To belabor the point, I will rely upon the extended words of Alex De'Toqueville (of all people) - The money shot, of some fame, highlighted:

     Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things.

    In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country.

    Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief.

    I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.

    In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

    In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

    Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

    I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution.

    Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.

    America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.

    The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom.

    The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other

    Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.


Inevitably, the jackals will have their way... Full of sophistry they exhibit the hubris of youth, knowing not the long line of those who have brought down civilized societies before them with exactly the same intentions.

America, as much as it breaks my heart, has ceased to be good. The rest is automatic and sure.

Online Free Vulcan

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The whole non-discrimination in a business serving the public thing sounds so nice and equal and fair, until you ask the question 'what about everyone else?' Such as in this situation with the artists doing weddings - who should they be forced to serve, in conjunction to their religious beliefs?

Of course, the liberals will ask, 'well should they be allowed to refuse blacks?' Which is all cutsie clever word arranging until you flip it on it's head and ask it from the other extreme. What about polygamists? Are they force to serve them? How about a Muslim child marriage? How about some naked blood sacrifice Satanic marriage? Transgender marriage? Some other deviant kind of 'marriage'? Do those not get protected too?

If that business is forced to do gay marriages, then it should be forced to do any and all marriages regardless of their religious beliefs, if they truly want to be fair under the 14th amendment. In that case however there is then no religious belief at all, it is completely overridden by secular govt compulsion, nullifying the 1st amendment.

Of course they don't do that. In reality the govt picks and chooses which groups are protected, and play both church and state in telling you of those things which violate your religion, which you must accommodate or not. Again, nullifying the 1st amendment while ignoring the 14th at the same time.

They aren't even consistent between religions. Apparently Islam gets a pass based on some flimsy, inconsistent reasoning, yet Christians are expected to conform with the same wildly contradictory reasoning. The liberals want to act like these laws are some high and lofty thing, when in fact they are wildly contradictory and inconsistent from case to case.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:31:28 pm by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

Offline Jazzhead

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So if a drunk comes in to buy a bottle of whiskey do you have to sell it.

If a man comes in to buy a gun to blow his brains out you have to sell it.

Do you sell a man a baseball bat so he can beat his wife.

Sure those are already illegal, but they are also sin. Why should the government be able to force you to do something you think is sinful?

Where do you draw the line?

Are they required to also make art for the Westboro Baptist as well? What about Pepe art for the skinheads? Neked pictures for a feminist event?

How about if someone wants a picture of some one p**s**g on a cross?


I think even prostitutes get to turn down clients...

What if you simply get more people who want your service than you can fulfill how can you decide who doesn't get their art?

Where do you draw the line?  It's easy, because there's no slippery slope.   Every example of "discrimination" you cite is perfectly legal,  because it is discrimination based on a customer's behavior.  Of course a bartender can refuse service to a drunk,  or a shopowner can refuse to sell a baseball bat to a customer who says he's going to use it to beat his wife,  or a baker can refuse to write an obscenity on a cake.   

 Illegal discrimination is arbitrary discrimination based merely on who someone is - white, Christian, straight, etc.   As has been pointed out,  even that sort of arbitrary discrimination is lawful when practiced outside the context of a public accommodation -  a business that advertises its wares to the general public.   



   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Where do you draw the line?  It's easy, because there's no slippery slope.   Every example of "discrimination" you cite is perfectly legal,  because it is discrimination based on a customer's behavior.  Of course a bartender can refuse service to a drunk,  or a shopowner can refuse to sell a baseball bat to a customer who says he's going to use it to beat his wife,  or a baker can refuse to write an obscenity on a cake.   

 Illegal discrimination is arbitrary discrimination based merely on who someone is - white, Christian, straight, etc.   As has been pointed out,  even that sort of arbitrary discrimination is lawful when practiced outside the context of a public accommodation -  a business that advertises its wares to the general public.   



 

Gay marriage isn't discrimination based on the customer's behavior? Really?
How is this any different that writing an obscenity on the cake when the Bible calls that "marriage" an abomination?
Why does the government have the right to force people to do what the Bible says is wrong? Where does the constitution give the government that right.

It's only arbitrary, because you have chosen not to honor their conscience and they have chosen to follow it.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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... And liberals are worried Trump is a fascist.


Imagine that?

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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To all those who say Christians should either violate their conscience or go out of business. Why does the government have the right to decide Christians can't operate any bossiness related to weddings? Why doesn't that bother anyone?

I know, I know following you conscience is dead and gone relegated to the past. That doesn't make it right.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Sanguine

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To all those who say Christians should either violate their conscience or go out of business. Why does the government have the right to decide Christians can't operate any bossiness related to weddings? Why doesn't that bother anyone?

I know, I know following you conscience is dead and gone relegated to the past. That doesn't make it right.

Yes, it bothers me. 

Is it really a legal requirement?

Quote
There is no federal statute explicitly addressing employment discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. However, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission interprets Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to cover discrimination against LGBT employees, as "allegations of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation necessarily state a claim of discrimination on the basis of sex".[2] This interpretation in essence bars employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in accordance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964.[3] In 2012 the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission ruled that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not allow gender identity-based employment discrimination because it is a form of sex discrimination.[4] Then in 2015, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission concluded that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not allow sexual orientation discrimination in employment because it is a form of sex discrimination.[5][6] However, these rulings, while persuasive, may not be binding on courts.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_employment_discrimination_in_the_United_States

Offline mirraflake

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Nope. I am operating a sole proprietorship under my own name. Everything is in order, I have no insurance except on vehicles, and I have no licenses or modifications with the exception of comp exemption with the state.
I file simple sole prop/sched C taxes with state and fed, and have been exactly so for years.


Crazy not to have a corporation today to protect your personal finances from a lawsuit.

You don't carry any business liability insurance? I'm not sure what you do but everyone should carry some liability and  errors and ommisions insurance etc if they run a business whether it's white or blue collar.

My wife and I own 3 companies. separate corporation for each.  I own my wifes office building and she pays me rent-she is not on that 4th corporation at all-just me. so if one of her employees screws up or something bad happens the suer cannot get the office building.

I have it set up under my own business I am paid as a regular employee.

Plus we have umbrella policies out the wazhoo.

@roamer_1

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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To all those who say Christians should either violate their conscience or go out of business. Why does the government have the right to decide Christians can't operate any bossiness related to weddings? Why doesn't that bother anyone?

I know, I know following you conscience is dead and gone relegated to the past. That doesn't make it right.


I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum who disagrees with you. I actually am quite socially liberal and I find this garbage, as well as 6 figure fines for refusing to bake cakes, to be outrageous.


Only question is what do we do about it?

Offline Sanguine

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I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum who disagrees with you. I actually am quite socially liberal and I find this garbage, as well as 6 figure fines for refusing to bake cakes, to be outrageous.


Only question is what do we do about it?

Great question.  And, the answer is, as with many injustices perpetuated as legal issues, do as these two Christians are doing.  Join with others fighting the battle, put your money where your mouth is, and understand that you may lose.  Be prepared to lose. 

Offline INVAR

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I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum who disagrees with you. I actually am quite socially liberal and I find this garbage, as well as 6 figure fines for refusing to bake cakes, to be outrageous.


Only question is what do we do about it?

We obey God rather than men, and damn the consequences.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

HonestJohn

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To all those who say Christians should either violate their conscience or go out of business. Why does the government have the right to decide Christians can't operate any bossiness related to weddings? Why doesn't that bother anyone?

I know, I know following you conscience is dead and gone relegated to the past. That doesn't make it right.

This argument would be valid if 'Christians' did speak up about more than just gay marriage.  For example, selling products to those that engage in premarital sex.

But as they don't, it looks incredibly hypocritical to speak up about this one, single, solitary issue.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:27:16 pm by HonestJohn »

Offline Cripplecreek

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We obey God rather than men, and damn the consequences.

Sadly "evangelical"  Robert (I love Trump) Jeffress is telling Christians that its time to move on from gay marriage because its settled law.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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This argument would be valid if 'Christians' did speak up about more than just gay marriage.  For example, selling products to those that engage in premarital sex.

But as they don't, it looks incredibly hypocritical to speak up about this one, single, solitary issue.
I know a lot of Christians that do speak up about other issues, nor I didn't realize there was a threshold of purity before a person is granted rights. The media will cover 3 people whining about the BLT movement and ignore three hundred that protest abortion or any other issue.

You know, if those black people hadn't been taking other black folks as slaves in Africa and selling them to the slave traders they might have had point. But otherwise if looks pretty hypocritical of them to expert their freedom now. 
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline TomSea

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This would be a good time for some Senators to for a change, get something done on this front; if they are so Constitutional, they can show their salt and introduce bills to protect our 1st amendment rights. 

Sadly, I've heard little about this.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:54:49 pm by TomSea »

Offline TomSea

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Bed and Breakfasts too, a case just opened up in Illinois, the owner of the B and B is being fined.
http://www.christiandaily.com/article/illinois-forces-christian-owned-bed-and-breakfast-to-host-gay-weddings/59591.htm

Offline TomSea

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Same Sex Marriage is law; Premarital Sex so far, is behavior. How many times does one hear, I don't care what gays are doing in their own privacy.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:54:19 pm by TomSea »