Author Topic: Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding  (Read 26254 times)

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Offline Cripplecreek

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If you were a Jewish baker and a member of the local chapter of American Nazis entered the shop and said he'd like a cake for his group's annual "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler" party, would it be okay for the government to require you to use your artistic and culinary talents in furtherance of that celebration?

I've got a militant lesbian cousin so I know how the game works.

Before same sex marriage became legal in Minnesota where they live, my cousin and her girlfriend applied for a loan to buy a home. The bank agreed to give them a joint loan but refused to give them a loan as a married couple. At that point there was no legal definition of marriage for same sex couples and the bank explained that for them to list my cousin and her girlfriend as married would be a fraudulent act.

My cousin and her girlfriend walked away from the loan they could get and took to facebook to rile up their militiant gay friends. They claimed the bank was refusing to give them a loan because they're gay.

Oceander

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Exactly, these are the examples always used. And gee, I wouldn't myself want to accept that even though I'm not Jewish, many people would object to that.

Then don't bake cakes for the public, or accept that you're running the risk of prosecution if you continue to discriminate.  Or subcontract that cake to another baker who doesn't care.  Or be smart about it and find some legitimate reason why you can't do it (too many other orders for that particular day) that has nothing to do with discrimination.  Or bake this one badly. 

Offline Sanguine

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Then don't bake cakes for the public, or accept that you're running the risk of prosecution if you continue to discriminate.  Or subcontract that cake to another baker who doesn't care.  Or be smart about it and find some legitimate reason why you can't do it (too many other orders for that particular day) that has nothing to do with discrimination.  Or bake this one badly.

That last one is a pretty good idea.

And, I wouldn't have to be Jewish to refuse to do a nazi cake.

Offline SirLinksALot

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Where are the threats of jail against Tom Ford, the fashion designer who refuses to provide his services to Melania Trump?

Offline Sanguine

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Where are the threats of jail against Tom Ford, the fashion designer who refuses to provide his services to Melania Trump?

Is she in a "protected category"?

Online roamer_1

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What slavery?   Their website says they provide invitations for weddings.   That's their choice.   Why should their customer, who engages their establishment based on their advertised services, be the victim of arbitrary discrimination?   

Bullsh*t. I have on many an occasion, discriminated against a$$H0les, even broke contracts on purpose. Just because I am capable of supplying a service doesn't mean I have to, for ANY reason.

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I think you've got it arse-backward who's the victim here.   Would you enjoy being denied service at a lunch counter for no reason other than the color of your skin?

I have been discriminated against my whole life. Huge guys are all dumb as a post doncha know. And yes, I have been discriminated against because of my skin.  Got kicked out of a rib joint in KC for being white. Got denied service by an Aryan Nations dude because he knows I've got Indian in my blood. I hang with Salish (Kootenai) people all the time, and have been discriminated as if I too were Salish.

I'd challenge you to go to south side Chicago and even get outta your car and live.

So friggin what?

And my religion. Being Christian Messianic is an equal opportunity offense! Jews hate on us, Christians hate on us, Hell, everybody hates on us. Don't got no home but among my own.

How far do you want to carry this kind of crap? You know what I do? I go find someone else who is happy to take my money and provide services... I hang with people who think like me... And I stay the hell away from the south side of Chicago.

Online roamer_1

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And they're being treated fairly, just like everyone else: if you offer a commercial service to the public, you cannot arbitrarily refuse to sell to some people.

The hell you say. I retain the right to refuse service for any reason whatsoever.

HonestJohn

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Well then, let's get the Nazis to demand  liberal artists make Nazi-themed art because according to the judge simply printing material with symbols on it doesn't mean the artists would be endorsing Nazism. Since it is legal to belong to the Nazi Party and espouse Nazi ideas,  the Nazis should be able to demand their stuff get printed/made, whatever by whomever makes stuff like that.

Would Nazis be targeted... because of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or disability?

If yes, there is a case.  If not, nothing.

It's a bad analogy.  For it to work, you'll need to craft one within the italicized constraints.

HonestJohn

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If I'm not free to choose who I work for, regardless of my reasons why, then I am a slave.

If your "employer" is the general public, then you don't get to choose your boss.

Any more than a clerk can object to a gay manager when working for a large company.

(Well, they can.  It's called 'quitting'.  The business version of that is 'shutting down'.)

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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What slavery?   Their website says they provide invitations for weddings.   That's their choice.   Why should their customer, who engages their establishment based on their advertised services, be the victim of arbitrary discrimination?   

I think you've got it arse-backward who's the victim here.   Would you enjoy being denied service at a lunch counter for no reason other than the color of your skin?
So if a drunk comes in to buy a bottle of whiskey do you have to sell it.

If a man comes in to buy a gun to blow his brains out you have to sell it.

Do you sell a man a baseball bat so he can beat his wife.

Sure those are already illegal, but they are also sin. Why should the government be able to force you to do something you think is sinful?

Where do you draw the line?

Are they required to also make art for the Westboro Baptist as well? What about Pepe art for the skinheads? Neked pictures for a feminist event?

How about if someone wants a picture of some one p**s**g on a cross?


I think even prostitutes get to turn down clients...

What if you simply get more people who want your service than you can fulfill how can you decide who doesn't get their art?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 10:29:37 pm by Idaho_Cowboy »
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

HonestJohn

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Marriage has been between a man and a woman forever and most all cultures, in the US, 99.9999% of all marriages ever have been between a man and a woman. Yes, there have been some exceptions but why should they have to abide with a redefinition of marriage. Did all of those marriages discriminate in the past?

What's next then? Calling marriage a union between a man and horse?

There is religious freedom too; it was upheld in the past.

AAAAAAHHH!!!  You went there!  Now I have to post this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVp3pGLRWkI

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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If your "employer" is the general public, then you don't get to choose your boss.


Isn't that the definition of free exchange?
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline XenaLee

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What slavery?   Their website says they provide invitations for weddings.   That's their choice.   Why should their customer, who engages their establishment based on their advertised services, be the victim of arbitrary discrimination?   

I think you've got it arse-backward who's the victim here.   Would you enjoy being denied service at a lunch counter for no reason other than the color of your skin?

And yet.....the US federal government discriminates all the time based on the color of skin (no whiteys need apply) via hiring quotas and preferential treatment to minorities and minority-owned businesses.  I guess it just depends upon who or what is doing the discriminating.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

HonestJohn

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And yet.....the US federal government discriminates all the time based on the color of skin (no whiteys need apply) via hiring quotas and preferential treatment to minorities and minority-owned businesses.  I guess it just depends upon who or what is doing the discriminating.

I can't believe your argument is, in essence, a "well, he does it too!"

Did no one ever teach the hoary old adage that "Two wrongs don't make a right"?!?

You should be working to get that stopped, not looking to spread it *further*!

Oceander

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I can't believe your argument is, in essence, a "well, he does it too!"

Did no one ever teach the hoary old adage that "Two wrongs don't make a right"?!?

You should be working to get that stopped, not looking to spread it *further*!

:thumbsup:

Offline XenaLee

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I can't believe your argument is, in essence, a "well, he does it too!"

Did no one ever teach the hoary old adage that "Two wrongs don't make a right"?!?

You should be working to get that stopped, not looking to spread it *further*!

I'm not making an "argument".  I'm saying that ""the law"" is whatever the federal government says it is.... at any given time, despite this supposedly being a 'representative republic' and despite the FACT that the majority of Americans are NOT in favor of same-sex marriage ....much less any or all of the BS other mandates the fed gov and liberal judges are imposing upon Christians because of that 'law'.

When the government makes bad laws that try to force you to betray your religious beliefs....

you better believe I'm going to say not just no, but HELL no to those laws.

I'm just funny that way.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Online roamer_1

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Actually the right to refuse service should be good for business.

If a racist has a restaurant and refuses to serve minorities, I want the location right across the street where I will advertise all business welcome.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to force someone to do business with them. Man up and walk away for pete's sake.


This is EXACTLY right. 'Affirmative action' has done irreparable damage to individual sovereignty and property rights in business. Reverse discrimination is discrimination just the same.

The only equitable position is to assert that any business has the perfect right to refuse service to anyone for any reason... And then let the market sort it out.

If a guy wants to hang nazi paraphernalia all over his business, and post a sign saying Jews and blacks are not welcome, he should have that perfect right... And he will be driven out of business all the same, because someone WILL come up and cater to those he refuses, make more money doing it, and probably take away the clientele of his competitor.

There is no dearth of services for homos. You can't find a gay artist or baker? REALLY? This whole thing is the militant liberal left, tearing yet another gaping hole in the liberty of the American people.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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The hell you say. I retain the right to refuse service for any reason whatsoever.
The gall that used to cut my hair used to have this up in her shop. She also had a cardboard cut out of John Wayne.

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“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Cripplecreek

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This is EXACTLY right. 'Affirmative action' has done irreparable damage to individual sovereignty and property rights in business. Reverse discrimination is discrimination just the same.

The only equitable position is to assert that any business has the perfect right to refuse service to anyone for any reason... And then let the market sort it out.

If a guy wants to hang nazi paraphernalia all over his business, and post a sign saying Jews and blacks are not welcome, he should have that perfect right... And he will be driven out of business all the same, because someone WILL come up and cater to those he refuses, make more money doing it, and probably take away the clientele of his competitor.

There is no dearth of services for homos. You can't find a gay artist or baker? REALLY? This whole thing is the militant liberal left, tearing yet another gaping hole in the liberty of the American people.

My dad's neighbor used to run a bar right near the Michigan state line with Ohio or Indiana. He did OK till Michigan made it illegal to smoke in bars. His nearest competitor a half mile down the road across the state line hit the jackpot and has since more than doubled the size of his building. My dad's neighbor has since closed and has the building up for sale.

If the demand for non smoking bars was so great, why did no one open them? There was no law preventing a bar owner from making his establishment non smoking only. It should have become a business opportunity but instead we had to impose an oppressive law on everyone.

Online roamer_1

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The gall that used to cut my hair used to have this up in her shop. She also had a cardboard cut out of John Wayne.

Damn right! My business is an extension of my person. It is my property. I have just as much right to kick you or anyone else right out the door - even as I do my personal home.

Just because I have no 'no trespassing' sign at my home (to wit: open to the public at least up the driveway and to the door) does not mean anyone can fee free to trespass, and I have the right to kick anyone off my property I choose (for whatever reason I have). The same extends to my goods and services.


Online roamer_1

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My dad's neighbor used to run a bar right near the Michigan state line with Ohio or Indiana. He did OK till Michigan made it illegal to smoke in bars. His nearest competitor a half mile down the road across the state line hit the jackpot and has since more than doubled the size of his building. My dad's neighbor has since closed and has the building up for sale.

If the demand for non smoking bars was so great, why did no one open them? There was no law preventing a bar owner from making his establishment non smoking only. It should have become a business opportunity but instead we had to impose an oppressive law on everyone.

Again, right on! it is discrimination under the color of law.

HonestJohn

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Damn right! My business is an extension of my person. It is my property. I have just as much right to kick you or anyone else right out the door - even as I do my personal home.

Just because I have no 'no trespassing' sign at my home (to wit: open to the public at least up the driveway and to the door) does not mean anyone can fee free to trespass, and I have the right to kick anyone off my property I choose (for whatever reason I have). The same extends to my goods and services.

If you want to do that, you still can.  Your establishment will just need to be listed as (and advertised as) a private establishment, not open to the public at large.  Customers would become "members", with you having the ultimate say as to whom may, or may not, be accepted.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 12:41:58 am by HonestJohn »

Offline SirLinksALot

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Business is exercising your freedom of expression where the work produced by your professional talents are your expressions

A public corporation is forced to adhere to federal laws as it’s a publicly traded company.

a private corporation can do anything it wants internally as it’s not beholden to anyone. When it comes to providing its services, whether or not the business will render services to any customer walking up should be up to that business.

As an example, gas stations can refuse to provide fuel if they believe the driver is intoxicated.

Also, a bartender may refuse continued service if he’she believes the customer has ‘had enough’

This a case where one person's rights can be protected only by discrimination against a second person. And that second person's rights can be protected by denying rights to the first person. How do you prevent this from happening? I don't see how you can under current law. The only solution that I can think of is to allow a business to clearly post a sign that says they will not serve homosexuals, or blacks or Muslims or anyone else, for religious reasons or any other reason. If you want to protect our First Amendment Rights,  Let everything be clear and out in the open and let the market decide whether they want to patronize your business or not.

Online roamer_1

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If you want to do that, you still can.  Your establishment will just need to be listed as (and advertised as) a private establishment, not open to the public at large.  Customers would become "members", with you having the ultimate say as to whom may, or may not, be accepted.

Bullcrap. I am Me. period. If I don't want your business, then go somewhere else. I am under no obligation to serve anyone.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Damn right! My business is an extension of my person. It is my property. I have just as much right to kick you or anyone else right out the door - even as I do my personal home.

Just because I have no 'no trespassing' sign at my home (to wit: open to the public at least up the driveway and to the door) does not mean anyone can fee free to trespass, and I have the right to kick anyone off my property I choose (for whatever reason I have). The same extends to my goods and services.

Open a business without a license, then make the argument that you don't need a license because your business is an extension of your person.

Let us know how you financed the fines and legal fees.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:57:00 am by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx