Author Topic: Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding  (Read 19870 times)

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Online TomSea

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I took a peek at their website.  They do beautiful work.   The site says they specialize in creating invitations for weddings.  That's what hold they themselves out to the general public as doing. 

So what gives them the right to discriminate?     

Marriage has been between a man and a woman forever and most all cultures, in the US, 99.9999% of all marriages ever have been between a man and a woman. Yes, there have been some exceptions but why should they have to abide with a redefinition of marriage. Did all of those marriages discriminate in the past?

What's next then? Calling marriage a union between a man and horse?

There is religious freedom too; it was upheld in the past.

Offline Jazzhead

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He is a member of the gaystapo.  They are all drama queens.

What's your basis for that charge?   Laws against discrimination in public accommodations have been around for many years.  "Religion" provides no exemption, just as "religion" provides no basis to, for example, not pay your taxes.   
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Offline Cripplecreek

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No, you are.  Shame on you.  God will judge you for that one day.

So called "conservatives" adjusting their ideals to those laid out in the book of Donald.

Nothing should make a man happier than knowing his government couldn't care less about him.
I'd rather lose defending the constitution than win at its expense.
Hitlers are born and die every day without notice. Its the morons who put them in power that are dangerous.
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Offline Jazzhead

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No, you are.  Shame on you.  God will judge you for that one day.

I'll take my chances with treating my fellow citizens with dignity and respect.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Jazzhead

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Marriage has been between a man and a woman forever and most all cultures, in the US, 99.9999% of all marriages ever have been between a man and a woman. Yes, there have been some exceptions but why should they have to abide with a redefinition of marriage. Did all of those marriages discriminate in the past?

What's next then? Calling marriage a union between a man and horse?

There is religious freedom too; it was upheld in the past.

It's not up to a storeowner to play God.  If he advertises a product for sale, he should provide it.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

geronl

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What the heck are you talking about?  This discussion doesn't pertain to affirmative action.   A lunch counter,  or a wedding planner,  who caters to the general public,  cannot arbitrarily discriminate against whites or blacks (or, in some jurisdictions, against gays or straights). 


So it's only okay if the government does it.... got it.

I completely disagree on this issue.

Oceander

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Why don't you do your work (whatever it is) to service white supremacists?  Or some other such thing you find vile.  Lead the way. 

Done that, although not with white supremacists.  Professionalism requires that you focus on the task, not irrelevant characteristics of the client.   

Online TomSea

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Yes, Marriage is between a man and a woman, I discriminate, I also discriminate if I want to listen to rock instead of classical, drive a ford instead of a toyota, eat a hamburger instead of a hotdog,  that all comes down to discriminating as well.

Discrimination may not always be bad, we say a person has discriminating tastes and things like that.

The government now recognizes those marriages, citizens should not have to.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:48:20 PM by TomSea »

Oceander

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Marriage has been between a man and a woman forever and most all cultures, in the US, 99.9999% of all marriages ever have been between a man and a woman. Yes, there have been some exceptions but why should they have to abide with a redefinition of marriage. Did all of those marriages discriminate in the past?

What's next then? Calling marriage a union between a man and horse?

There is religious freedom too; it was upheld in the past.

They aren't being forced to accede to a gay marriage in their personal private affairs, they're being forced to offer their wholly secular commercial services to the general public on a non-discriminatory basis.  Completely different issue.

Oceander

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Yes, Marriage is between a man and a woman, I discriminate, I also discriminate if I want to listen to rock instead of classical, drive a ford instead of a toyota, eat a hamburger instead of a hotdog,  that all comes down to discriminating as well.

Discrimination may not always be bad, we say a person has discriminating tastes and things like that.

The government now recognizes those marriages, citizens should not have to.

Everything you mentioned is solely your private life and has nothing to do with offering commercial services to the general public.  That's a distinction with a difference. 

Offline Cripplecreek

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I don't believe that God commanded that we cease doing all business with sinners.  If that were the case, nobody could do business with anybody, what with original sin.

Actually the right to refuse service should be good for business.

If a racist has a restaurant and refuses to serve minorities, I want the location right across the street where I will advertise all business welcome.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to force someone to do business with them. Man up and walk away for pete's sake.

Nothing should make a man happier than knowing his government couldn't care less about him.
I'd rather lose defending the constitution than win at its expense.
Hitlers are born and die every day without notice. Its the morons who put them in power that are dangerous.
You don't escape guilt by declaring that you have no choice.
Lese-majeste is my middle name

Online TomSea

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They aren't being forced to accede to a gay marriage in their personal private affairs, they're being forced to offer their wholly secular commercial services to the general public on a non-discriminatory basis.  Completely different issue.

As to your signature line, change the election laws if one doesn't like the electoral college, I noted Trump did not go out to campaign a lot in California, so I consider your signature a falsehood.

Some businesses do not care to promote even same sex marriage.

You can't change thousands of years of tradition and now declare that a marriage is between two of the same sex or group marriages which could come next and so on.

Oceander

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So it's only okay if the government does it.... got it.

I completely disagree on this issue.

Now you're conflating policy with following the dictates of duly enacted law.  I'm sure many people disagree with the policy behind the law, but still insist that the tenets of the law be followed. 

Or are we simply cut from the same cloth as the democrats, where adherence to the law is merely a matter of personal preference, and the only difference being that we prefer to ignore a different set of laws?

Online TomSea

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Glad to see someone say Clinton should be our president, just don't accuse others of saying they are for Clinton or the Mods will act.

Online TomSea

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SCOTUS also upheld slavery, I'd be darned if I'm going to say that was okay.

Offline mountaineer

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If you were a Jewish baker and a member of the local chapter of American Nazis entered the shop and said he'd like a cake for his group's annual "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler" party, would it be okay for the government to require you to use your artistic and culinary talents in furtherance of that celebration?
"Because men have lost the objective basis of certainty of knowledge of the thing in which they are working, more and more I fear we are going to find them manipulating science according to their own sociological or political desires rather than standing upon concrete objectivity." Francis A. Schaeffer

Oceander

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As to your signature line, change the election laws if one doesn't like the electoral college, I noted Trump did not go out to campaign a lot in California, so I consider your signature a falsehood.

Some businesses do not care to promote even same sex marriage.

You can't change thousands of years of tradition and now declare that a marriage is between two of the same sex or group marriages which could come next and so on.
@TomSea
I love my signature line because it provides y'all with a great opportunity to display your own prejudices and demonstrate an inability to read what's written. 

I have said, repeatedly, that I think the electoral college is a really good thing; that it is very good for cutting short the plethora of disputes and recounts that would crop up without it, and it's also good at limiting the ability of a demagogue to take control.  But it comes with a price - a price I think is well worth it - namely, that sometimes the popular loser is the electoral college winner.  That in turn means that just because someone won the electoral college that does not mean that they have a popular mandate to act as they see fit.  And that is the case with Trump.  He is a technical winner only, and I am only insisting that his damned supporters stop telling lies and grasp this basic fact. So far they cannot.  I suppose to do so simply requires more maturity than their fragile egos can muster. 

Oceander

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SCOTUS also upheld slavery, I'd be darned if I'm going to say that was okay.

And then they slowly came around as the Courts institutional understanding developed and the old justices were replaced by new justices with new views that were shocking.  Ultimately they reach Brown v. Board of Educstion, where even separate treatment is not permitted. 

And yet, here you are arguing that we should not allow there to be anything new under the sun. 

Oceander

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If you were a Jewish baker and a member of the local chapter of American Nazis entered the shop and said he'd like a cake for his group's annual "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler" party, would it be okay for the government to require you to use your artistic and culinary talents in furtherance of that celebration?

Slanted question.  The relevant question is whether it would be ok for the government to prevent you from arbitrarily refusing to provide a commercial service to certain members of the public based on personal bias.

As for the basic issue, that has been resolved in essence years ago: a town inhabited predominantly by Jewish survivors of the Holocaust cannot prevent the American Nazi party from holding a peaceful rally in their town.  And no less than a Jewish lawyer argued the party's case all the way to the Supreme Court.  That was an example of pure professionalism. 

Oceander

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Glad to see someone say Clinton should be our president, just don't accuse others of saying they are for Clinton or the Mods will act.
@TomSea
Nobody's saying that; leastwise, I'm not saying that, but you wouldn't know that because you didn't actually read what I wrote. 

Offline Sanguine

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I'll take my chances with treating my fellow citizens with dignity and respect.

Um, these ARE your fellow citizens, right here.
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

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Oceander

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Um, these ARE your fellow citizens, right here.

And they're being treated fairly, just like everyone else: if you offer a commercial service to the public, you cannot arbitrarily refuse to sell to some people. 

Online TomSea

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Marriage is seen as a religious institution by many, that takes the secular out of it a bit.

Just like baptisms, bar-mitzvahs, confirmations, communions and whatever else is out there.

Online TomSea

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If you were a Jewish baker and a member of the local chapter of American Nazis entered the shop and said he'd like a cake for his group's annual "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler" party, would it be okay for the government to require you to use your artistic and culinary talents in furtherance of that celebration?

Exactly, these are the examples always used. And gee, I wouldn't myself want to accept that even though I'm not Jewish, many people would object to that.

Oceander

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Marriage is seen as a religious institution by many, that takes the secular out of it a bit.

Just like baptisms, bar-mitzvahs, confirmations, communions and whatever else is out there.

Many things are seen as this or that by various groups of people. That doesn't give them the right to decide how that something is treated.  Or should liberals be allowed to suppress conservatives because they find them objectionable?


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