Author Topic: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’  (Read 2975 times)

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HonestJohn

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‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« on: October 29, 2016, 01:51:53 am »
In back rooms and think tanks, Republicans are already mourning their party—and plotting the fight over who’s going to be in it after Trump.

By Julia Ioffe
October 28, 2016

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/donald-trump-2016-gop-civil-war-republicans-rnc-future-214396

As the country geared up for the third and final presidential debate last week, the fellows of the storied conservative Hoover Institution gathered in Palo Alto to present their research to the think tank's wealthy patrons. Elsewhere in America, in the homestretch of perhaps the weirdest election the nation has ever experienced, things were getting tense, excited, even feverish. But the rooms at the Hoover retreat at Stanford University could have doubled as a funeral parlor, and the lectures as eulogies for a bygone era. Larry Diamond, a prominent political sociologist known to fellow scholars as “Mr. Democracy,” talked about the breakdown of the party system. Kori Schake, a National Security Council official in the George W. Bush administration and adviser to the McCain-Palin campaign, spoke about how the U.S. was endangering the international order it had itself created. Peter Berkowitz, a conservative political scientist and commentator, gave a talk about “the unraveling of civil society” in America.

“Obviously the party and the conservative movement are very troubled, and there will obviously be a crisis whether Trump wins or loses,” Berkowitz told me later. “What are the core conservative convictions going forward?”

“If he wins, he will for all intents and purposes reshape what it means to be a Republican,” said Schake when I called her. “We’re fumbling our way through, which I hope will lead us to consensus, but we’re nowhere near it now.”

This election, the conventional wisdom goes, has done tremendous damage to the American body politic, but nowhere is the damage as severe as it is inside the party that nominated the wrecking ball known as Donald Trump. Now the party of Ronald Reagan is being led by a man with no discernible ideological leanings, save for an affinity with some of history’s ugliest. In the face of mounting evidence that Hillary Clinton is set to dominate the electoral map on November 8, Republicans across the right side of the spectrum recognize there’s defeat coming. And behind the scenes, in conversations and closed-door venues—the Hoover gathering was not open to the public—the people who once considered themselves the heart, or at least the head, of the party have begun a very pessimistic reckoning.

As yet there seems to be no coherent vision for what kind of future November 9 brings for the Republican Party—or, for that matter, if there will even be a Republican Party they could support. “You’re assuming that ‘establishment Republicans’ are going to be Republicans anymore,” said Juleanna Glover, a GOP lobbyist and former staffer to then-Senator John Ashcroft of Missouri.

“The likelihood of the Republican Party surviving this, of there being another Republican president in the future, is small,” said one movement conservative who served in the Bush White House. “I don’t think the party survives.”

Far from the halls of the Hoover Institution and big Washington policy shops is a force they cannot control: the Trump campaign, a small collection of social-media gurus, Breitbart alumni, and Trump family members who have managed to capture the majority of Republican voters in the U.S., and who may use their new power to launch a media network, or take over as the new axis of the GOP, or both. And as the old establishment looks on in horror, the civil war in its ranks has already begun.

The chasm that opened first was intellectual: The neocon movement, which was, in essence, the brain trust of the latter Bush, “has broken off,” Berkowitz said. The next fissure appears to be generational: The so-called reformicons—a priesthood of intellectual Gen X-ers who have been trying to recalibrate Reagan’s vision for the conditions of the 21st century—are at the very heart of the agonized intraparty conflict. On one hand, they’ve often been seen as the potential ideological future of the party. On the other, a resoundingly loud majority of their electorate, the very people for whom they were tending the flame, have roundly rejected their vision. Few in the Republican base in 2016 cared much for free trade and supply-side economics, preferring the isolationist, nativist, paleocon teachings of the itinerant preacher Trump.

Establishment stalwarts in their 60s, meanwhile, are rolling their eyes at the angst of these rarefied intellectual purists, saying there’s nothing wrong with tinkering with your ideology for the sake of forming a coalition to hold power, no matter how motley. To them, Trump is a black swan event, and the way forward, though significantly more difficult after the chaos he’s wrought, isn’t all that fraught: Toss some ideological dead weight overboard to bring in more voters, and run a candidate like Trump’s VP pick Mike Pence in 2020.

That is an appalling prospect to the younger conservatives, some of whom have begun to use the word “collaborator” to describe the Republicans who publicly signed on with Trump as he steamrolled toward the nomination. “I know lots of high-value donors who have no desire to have any collaborators at the top of the ticket in 2020,” Glover said of Pence. “That’s a commonly held opinion.” “Pence has disgraced himself in this election,” says reformicon archpriest Pete Wehner, a senior fellow at the conservative Ethics and Public Policy Center and a former senior adviser to the younger Bush. “He has been making arguments that he can’t possibly believe, on behalf of a man he can’t possibly believe in.” To them, Pence made a pact with the devil, and says Wehner, “There should be consequences for that.”

With less than two weeks until election day, this is what Republican agony sounds like. “I’ve never seen so many really smart people at a loss for what to do,” says the head of one prominent conservative think tank. “They’re pulling their hair out, to the extent they have any hair left.” Douglas Heye, a former Republican National Committee official and staffer for former House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, rejects the word “collaborator.” “I don’t like that language. I don’t think it helps,” he told me. “I’ve been watching a French TV series about World War II, and now I’m watching the part about the aftermath of the war where they’re trying to figure out who’s a collaborator, shaving women’s heads, etc.” The echo scares him. “I would like to see us sort out our differences in nonpunitive ways,” he says.

(more at link)

Offline LMAO

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 02:12:41 pm »
If Trump wins, the GOP's problems will not go away. The tragedy of this whole election, besides Trump being the nominee, is watching otherwise conservative voters embrace a more activist federal government and more central control and new programs. Especially in a time were what we need is less of the above along with deep spending cuts.

So the fight rages on between the Progressive Populists/Nationalists represented by Trump verses the Constitutional Conservatives. Conservatives are more of a threat to a Trump presidency than any other group. Conservatives will fight Trump's expansion of the federal government and his attempts to govern outside the limits of the Constitution. Lest we forget, Trump once bragged about the deals he could make with the likes of Pelosi and Schumer.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 02:21:32 pm »
If Trump wins, the GOP's problems will not go away. The tragedy of this whole election, besides Trump being the nominee, is watching otherwise conservative voters embrace a more activist federal government and more central control and new programs. Especially in a time were what we need is less of the above along with deep spending cuts.

So the fight rages on between the Progressive Populists/Nationalists represented by Trump verses the Constitutional Conservatives. Conservatives are more of a threat to a Trump presidency than any other group. Conservatives will fight Trump's expansion of the federal government and his attempts to govern outside the limits of the Constitution. Lest we forget, Trump once bragged about the deals he could make with the likes of Pelosi and Schumer.

Trump's a disgusting POS, and should be held complicit and accountable for destruction of this country, along with is his corrupt opponent.

It's like this country has been sadly and destructively punked in 2016.  Prayers are needed.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2016, 02:21:37 pm »
@LMAO

In my opinion, the only thing worse for Trumpers than losing is winning.

They'll either have to embrace Trump socialism or renounce it while trying to convince us that its a recent change that the rest of us have warned of all along.

Offline LMAO

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2016, 02:24:27 pm »
Trump's a disgusting POS, and should be held complicit and accountable for destruction of this country, along with is his corrupt opponent.

It's like this country has been sadly and destructively punked in 2016.  Prayers are needed.

Not a good election for conservatives, that's for sure
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Offline jpsb

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2016, 02:33:26 pm »
Not a good election for conservatives, that's for sure

No it is a very good election for conservatives however it's very bad election for globalist neocons. And I for one am very happy about that.

Online roamer_1

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 02:41:04 pm »
No it is a very good election for conservatives however it's very bad election for globalist neocons. And I for one am very happy about that.

There isn't a single Conservative principle being upheld by either major party - And whether or not Trump wins, the globalist neocons are still firmly in control of the Republicans.

Offline LMAO

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2016, 02:43:26 pm »
No it is a very good election for conservatives however it's very bad election for globalist neocons. And I for one am very happy about that.

I doubt you even know what a globalist neo con even is.

So we can put you down as embracing an expansion of the federal government as long as its Trump

It's conservatism and the ideas of limited government, free markets, and a more sane and sound fiscal policy that would be better for the country and not Trump's soft statism

If conservativism doesn't win, math and the law of economics will with devastating results
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 02:49:05 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline INVAR

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2016, 03:15:59 pm »

“Obviously the party and the conservative movement are very troubled, and there will obviously be a crisis whether Trump wins or loses,” Berkowitz told me later. “What are the core conservative convictions going forward?”

Simple: Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump - 24/7/365 Trump - Trump all the time.  Everything he says and does will become holy writ by his cultists and a bane of horror to everyone else.  For Trump's NYC Liberal Socialism is what is now being defined as the Conservative standard.

The only core principles that will matter is Trump.  What Trump says and what Trump does, or does not do, will define his bastardization of the term 'Conservative', from nationalist populist fascism, even when it is to the Left of Bernie Sanders.

There are no more Conservative convictions among the flagellating mobs who adore their prince.  Only Trump and their blind beliefs and hopes for change they have all lofted upon his shoulders ala Obama in 2008.

The only ones left who have Conservative convictions, are those of us who have decided to go third party and dump the GOP and their Trojan Stalking Horse for Hillary.

“If he wins, he will for all intents and purposes reshape what it means to be a Republican,” said Schake when I called her. “We’re fumbling our way through, which I hope will lead us to consensus, but we’re nowhere near it now.”

"Consensus"?

That needs to go on the headstone of the GOP as the cause of death.

Principles do not require consensus. They simply are.  Either they are agreed to, or not agreed to.

Compromise waters down the very core convictions this author laments as being 'lost' to Trump.

Principles and conviction is why there is a thing known as NeverTrump among Conservatives who are disgusted with the GOP.

“The likelihood of the Republican Party surviving this, of there being another Republican president in the future, is small,” said one movement conservative who served in the Bush White House. “I don’t think the party survives.”

Good.

It needs to die, and go the way of the Whigs.  I'll never vote for a Republican ever again.  McConnell and Boehner saw to that. Trump just made it permanent.

Trump will simply make himself a Fuhrer and make his own Fascist policies "Conservative" and use his penchant for punishment and public incitement his cassus belli for what all narcissistic dictators do to those who refuse to bow to them.  Trump's public meltdowns over anyone who disses him are case-in-point of the high danger we face with him as dear leader.


Douglas Heye, a former Republican National Committee official and staffer for former House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, rejects the word “collaborator.” “I don’t like that language. I don’t think it helps,” he told me. “I’ve been watching a French TV series about World War II, and now I’m watching the part about the aftermath of the war where they’re trying to figure out who’s a collaborator, shaving women’s heads, etc.” The echo scares him. “I would like to see us sort out our differences in nonpunitive ways,” he says.


And this is one of many myriad reasons why Trump is a far more clear and present danger to your liberty than Hillary.  His mobs want blood, and they are happy to start first with those whom were once part of the GOP who refuse to genuflect their political messiah.

The threats of death and punishment for 'treason' and statements of 'remembering' who is 'against them' for refusing to vote for Trump are becoming more shrill and frequent.  It's not the Marxists they are promising retribution against.

It's Principled Conservatives who refuse to vote for their king.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2016, 03:19:59 pm »
No it is a very good election for conservatives however it's very bad election for globalist neocons. And I for one am very happy about that.

Only a Leftist/Liberal Statist actually thinks this election is 'good' for Conservatives.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Oceander

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2016, 03:24:12 pm »
No it is a very good election for conservatives however it's very bad election for globalist neocons. And I for one am very happy about that.

It's not a good election for anyone at all.  Both candidates are reprobates and no matter who wins the election, they'll be gimped and politically gelded and won't be able to do much except through extra-constitutional means such as executive orders.

Offline Gefn

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2016, 04:30:09 pm »
It's not a good election for anyone at all.  Both candidates are reprobates and no matter who wins the election, they'll be gimped and politically gelded and won't be able to do much except through extra-constitutional means such as executive orders.


I'm still hopeful for right choices being made at other levels. Congress, governors, senators, assembly, etc. I love my country.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 04:32:06 pm by Freya »
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Offline dfwgator

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2016, 04:32:59 pm »
It's not a good election for anyone at all.  Both candidates are reprobates and no matter who wins the election, they'll be gimped and politically gelded and won't be able to do much except through extra-constitutional means such as executive orders.

Maybe we should just appoint a Junta, and go without a President for four years.

Offline bolobaby

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2016, 04:35:06 pm »
@LMAO

In my opinion, the only thing worse for Trumpers than losing is winning.

They'll either have to embrace Trump socialism or renounce it while trying to convince us that its a recent change that the rest of us have warned of all along.

@Cripplecreek

Has there been ANY indication in Trumpette behavior that they WON'T figure out a way to rationalize their acceptance of EVERYTHING Trump does???
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Offline jpsb

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2016, 04:41:22 pm »
I doubt you even know what a globalist neo con even is.

So we can put you down as embracing an expansion of the federal government as long as its Trump

It's conservatism and the ideas of limited government, free markets, and a more sane and sound fiscal policy that would be better for the country and not Trump's soft statism

If conservativism doesn't win, math and the law of economics will with devastating results

You are quite incorrect and your post is insulting to boot. Get back to me when you lose your attitude.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2016, 05:32:59 pm »
If Trump wins, the GOP's problems will not go away. The tragedy of this whole election, besides Trump being the nominee, is watching otherwise conservative voters embrace a more activist federal government and more central control and new programs. Especially in a time were what we need is less of the above along with deep spending cuts.



Rush Limbaugh used to talk about "green eyeshade lingo".   He was referring to Republican's tendency to start citing numbers and trends in an effort to convince people that the budget needs to be balanced.   He said all this does is make people go to sleep.   They don't understand it,  and they aren't going to listen to any argument that is complicated and difficult to follow,  especially with a lot of math in it. 


Now you are discussing conservative voters who caused Trump to win the primary as if they are as knowledgeable about political theory underpinning the differences in party ideology as you are.   They are not.   All they know is that they don't like the direction the country is heading in,  and so they want someone to take it in a different direction.   They don't understand this "growth of the state",  or "Federal Power",  or any of that stuff.   


They just no this guy is the opponent of the ones who have been running things for the last 8 years,  and that is the extent to which most of them bother thinking about the election. 


They picked Trump not because of any deep understanding of issues.   They picked him for obvious and simple reasons.   He fights.   Everyone in power now hates him,  and he says things that sound good.   Many of the larger body of voters simply do not take into account all that "theory of governance" in which we political junkies are interested.   They don't know the difference between a "Statist"  and a an advocate for limited government.    Their mental decision making processes do not go that deep. 



So the fight rages on between the Progressive Populists/Nationalists represented by Trump verses the Constitutional Conservatives. Conservatives are more of a threat to a Trump presidency than any other group. Conservatives will fight Trump's expansion of the federal government and his attempts to govern outside the limits of the Constitution. Lest we forget, Trump once bragged about the deals he could make with the likes of Pelosi and Schumer.


I realized a year ago that Trump would be a problem for conservatives if he won the primary,   but people had become  more of a fan club than a group of thinkers and philosophers.   I could see it coming,  but there was nothing I could do to stop it.   


People did not want to hear reason,  (same as now with the "No Trumpers" )  and you were really wasting your breath trying to convince them otherwise. 


I have been saying for decades that in making up people's minds,   emotion is a far more powerful persuader than logic,  and the Trump supporters in the primary were heavily motivated by emotion,  and not so much by reason.   


Yes,  Trump is going to be a problem for conservatives.   As I've said repeatedly,  he is not an ideologue and has no real understanding of the government's proper role in life.   He will likely advocate big government solutions to problems because he shares the mindset of the common man of the street,  not political philosophers.   


I am sure I will be screaming at my television under a Trump Presidency,  and the only consolation is that I would have been screaming longer and harder under a Clinton Presidency.   
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2016, 05:38:52 pm »
Trump's a disgusting POS, and should be held complicit and accountable for destruction of this country, along with is his corrupt opponent.


Shouldn't you wait until after he has done something to destroy the country before condemning him? 


It's like this country has been sadly and destructively punked in 2016.  Prayers are needed.


It was sadly punked in 1992 when the media threw the election to Bill Clinton.    What we have seen since are merely the consequences of media manipulation for that subsequent time period.   

The real force of our destruction has been one party control of the media,  which indirectly control how the American public will vote.   They hype stories damaging to Republicans (Watergate was a big nothing,  but media turned it into a major major "CRIME OF THE CENTURY!")  and they short shrift or coverup entirely stories which are damaging to Democrats.   


The existing media system is a threat to the Republic.   It needs to be smashed with a Nuclear Sledgehammer and reorganized so as to prevent one party control. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Online roamer_1

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2016, 05:47:19 pm »
They just no this guy is the opponent of the ones who have been running things for the last 8 years,  and that is the extent to which most of them bother thinking about the election. 

And yet, there they are stilll in place at the levers of power, largely with Trump's blessing.

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Their mental decision making processes do not go that deep.

To infer any depth at all would be an exaggeration. 

Quote
People did not want to hear reason,  (same as now with the "No Trumpers" )  and you were really wasting your breath trying to convince them otherwise. 

Quite untrue - Every 'no trumper' here is standing upon principle - which translates exactly to reasoned thought. Why they can't be moved is in the bare fact that pro-Trump arguments are not reasoned or reasonable. I remain open to a well-reasoned argument coming from the pro-Trump crowd. I don't expect it will come, because there really isn't one, but you are welcome to try.


Offline Longmire

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2016, 06:19:35 pm »
No it is a very good election for conservatives however it's very bad election for globalist neocons. And I for one am very happy about that.

I disagree...the conservative brand has been shattered and there's no putting the pieces back together. 

The folks thinking this rift will heal after the election are kidding themselves. 

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2016, 06:30:14 pm »

Now you are discussing conservative voters who caused Trump to win the primary as if they are as knowledgeable about political theory underpinning the differences in party ideology as you are.   They are not.   All they know is that they don't like the direction the country is heading in,  and so they want someone to take it in a different direction.   They don't understand this "growth of the state",  or "Federal Power",  or any of that stuff.

The problem is "political theory underpinning the differences in party ideology" no longer exists.  The American people understand what's happening first hand .. they are living the consequences.   And they also know no one in Washington gives a rat's arse about fixing the problems they live with---except when asking for their vote. 

The American people know the score and they've had enough of it.


Quote
They picked Trump not because of any deep understanding of issues.   They picked him for obvious and simple reasons.   He fights.   Everyone in power now hates him,  and he says things that sound good.   Many of the larger body of voters simply do not take into account all that "theory of governance" in which we political junkies are interested.   They don't know the difference between a "Statist"  and a an advocate for limited government.    Their mental decision making processes do not go that deep.

The American people recognize condescension when they hear it.  Maybe conservatives would do better if they understood this about the "average" American.  They do not appreciate being told they're too stupid and shallow to grasp the greatest of politicians unable to articulate a plan beyond spewing quotes from treasured national documents and their authors - - - especially when they are being asked to live with the consequences of their screw-ups.

Conservatives should consider less judging, less talking and more substantive action with tangible results. 

Quote
I realized a year ago that Trump would be a problem for conservatives if he won the primary,   but people had become  more of a fan club than a group of thinkers and philosophers.   I could see it coming,  but there was nothing I could do to stop it.   

That's the problem.  Conservatives want to sit around and think, philosophize.  Trump supporters want to DO. 

We'll build the wall, rebalance trade agreements, cut taxes, vet Muslin "refugees", reduce regulations, rebuild our military, defeat ISIS and drain the swamp.   You can sit around and contemplate why so few were smart enough to wait for you to unwind from your lotus position, stand up and help the rest of us DO what needs to be done.

Quote
Yes,  Trump is going to be a problem for conservatives.   As I've said repeatedly,  he is not an ideologue and has no real understanding of the government's proper role in life.   He will likely advocate big government solutions to problems because he shares the mindset of the common man of the street,  not political philosophers.   

And you end by proving my point beautifully:   Conservatives are the problem for conservatives.   

As for Trump advocating big government solutions---that's absurd.  For one thing Trump is a businessman living the obstacles thrown at him and his employees by government interference:   health insurance costs, taxes, regulations, the EPA, to name just a few.   So don't go insulting the "common man".  There is nothing common about surviving the hell created by Washington.

Come down from Mount Olympus and spend some time on planet earth @DiogenesLamp .   Quickly.




Offline LMAO

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2016, 06:33:44 pm »


Rush Limbaugh used to talk about "green eyeshade lingo".   He was referring to Republican's tendency to start citing numbers and trends in an effort to convince people that the budget needs to be balanced.   He said all this does is make people go to sleep.   They don't understand it,  and they aren't going to listen to any argument that is complicated and difficult to follow,  especially with a lot of math in it. 


Now you are discussing conservative voters who caused Trump to win the primary as if they are as knowledgeable about political theory underpinning the differences in party ideology as you are.   They are not.   All they know is that they don't like the direction the country is heading in,  and so they want someone to take it in a different direction.   They don't understand this "growth of the state",  or "Federal Power",  or any of that stuff.   


They just no this guy is the opponent of the ones who have been running things for the last 8 years,  and that is the extent to which most of them bother thinking about the election. 


They picked Trump not because of any deep understanding of issues.   They picked him for obvious and simple reasons.   He fights.   Everyone in power now hates him,  and he says things that sound good.   Many of the larger body of voters simply do not take into account all that "theory of governance" in which we political junkies are interested.   They don't know the difference between a "Statist"  and a an advocate for limited government.    Their mental decision making processes do not go that deep. 




I realized a year ago that Trump would be a problem for conservatives if he won the primary,   but people had become  more of a fan club than a group of thinkers and philosophers.   I could see it coming,  but there was nothing I could do to stop it.   


People did not want to hear reason,  (same as now with the "No Trumpers" )  and you were really wasting your breath trying to convince them otherwise. 


I have been saying for decades that in making up people's minds,   emotion is a far more powerful persuader than logic,  and the Trump supporters in the primary were heavily motivated by emotion,  and not so much by reason.   


Yes,  Trump is going to be a problem for conservatives.   As I've said repeatedly,  he is not an ideologue and has no real understanding of the government's proper role in life.   He will likely advocate big government solutions to problems because he shares the mindset of the common man of the street,  not political philosophers.   


I am sure I will be screaming at my television under a Trump Presidency,  and the only consolation is that I would have been screaming longer and harder under a Clinton Presidency.   

@DiogenesLamp

You make good points and I find little in your post to disagree with.

But,IMO, conservatives, or at least those that post here and at other places, should be better informed than the electorate as a whole. Being a conservative isn't simply being opposed to what BHO is doing and then voting for one's own version of a pen and a phone.

The results of more central control and more debt will be the same whether a Trump, Clinton, or an Obama is at the helm.

Back in my days at FR, more than one poster agreed that Trump will grow the size of the federal government but since Trump had more experience at running a big business empire, he will be successful running a large and growing federal government. Now, I can understand apolitical people thinking that way, but not politically active conservatives 
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline LMAO

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2016, 06:41:13 pm »
The problem is "political theory underpinning the differences in party ideology" no longer exists.  The American people understand what's happening first hand .. they are living the consequences.   And they also know no one in Washington gives a rat's arse about fixing the problems they live with---except when asking for their vote. 

The American people know the score and they've had enough of it.


The American people recognize condescension when they hear it.  Maybe conservatives would do better if they understood this about the "average" American.  They do not appreciate being told they're too stupid and shallow to grasp the greatest of politicians unable to articulate a plan beyond spewing quotes from treasured national documents and their authors - - - especially when they are being asked to live with the consequences of their screw-ups.

Conservatives should consider less judging, less talking and more substantive action with tangible results. 

That's the problem.  Conservatives want to sit around and think, philosophize.  Trump supporters want to DO. 

We'll build the wall, rebalance trade agreements, cut taxes, vet Muslin "refugees", reduce regulations, rebuild our military, defeat ISIS and drain the swamp.   You can sit around and contemplate why so few were smart enough to wait for you to unwind from your lotus position, stand up and help the rest of us DO what needs to be done.

And you end by proving my point beautifully:   Conservatives are the problem for conservatives.   

As for Trump advocating big government solutions---that's absurd.  For one thing Trump is a businessman living the obstacles thrown at him and his employees by government interference:   health insurance costs, taxes, regulations, the EPA, to name just a few.   So don't go insulting the "common man".  There is nothing common about surviving the hell created by Washington.

Come down from Mount Olympus and spend some time on planet earth @DiogenesLamp .   Quickly.

This post tells me that this particular poster believes conservative philosophy and solutions and the Constitution are the problem and not politicians who run on a conservative platform and go to D.C. and govern like liberals. If memory serves, you cheered Trumps mandatory maternity leave.  Yes, yes. I know. "Cutting fraud and waste" Lol!!!

This is the problem of the GOP believing we can have more government but the argument should be delivering it cheaper and better than the Democrats. If I wanted Democrat policies I'd vote for them

No, government is not the solution. It's always the problem. And then we need more government "solutions" to fix the problems caused by said government
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 06:46:31 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline XenaLee

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2016, 06:43:43 pm »

Shouldn't you wait until after he has done something to destroy the country before condemning him? 

He already has done something.  He used his wealth to support and donate to the very worst leftists in government.  Radicals like Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton.  His assistance via his money helped to destroy us from within.  Who is naïve enough to think he has really 'changed'...when he admits to being able to turn on a dime and that he says what he has to say to "seal the deal"?  Certainly not I.

Quote
It was sadly punked in 1992 when the media threw the election to Bill Clinton.    What we have seen since are merely the consequences of media manipulation for that subsequent time period.   

The real force of our destruction has been one party control of the media,  which indirectly control how the American public will vote.   They hype stories damaging to Republicans (Watergate was a big nothing,  but media turned it into a major major "CRIME OF THE CENTURY!")  and they short shrift or coverup entirely stories which are damaging to Democrats.   

The existing media system is a threat to the Republic.  It needs to be smashed with a Nuclear Sledgehammer and reorganized so as to prevent one party control.

Oh please.  Speaking of naïve, how naïve would you have to be to 'think' that after a nuclear event in the USA....that any subsequent reorganization would preclude a one-party, totalitarian government?  Hell, the leftists are probably drooling over the very prospect of such an event.  Much to our dismay and impending demise.

And....if you're speaking merely symbolically....how, exactly, would that be accomplished?  Give me an example.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 06:45:54 pm by XenaLee »
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2016, 06:47:02 pm »
This post tells me that this particular poster believes conservative philosophy and solutions and the Constitution are the problem

You need to reread the post @LMAO.  Carefully this time.

Offline LMAO

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Re: ‘We Are in for a Pretty Long Civil War’
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2016, 06:50:41 pm »
You need to reread the post @LMAO.  Carefully this time.

I have read your post several times. My statement stands

Also, Trump has advocated for big government solutions. That you choose to support them or deny they are is your problem, not mine
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 06:54:55 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy