Author Topic: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?  (Read 7187 times)

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2016, 04:09:27 pm »
If his advice was so mundane that everyone will do it anyway, then why was it stupid and objectionable?  It can only be objectionable if you advocate that people vote against their own conscience, in which case your statement contradicts itself because you've plainly stated that "everyone votes their conscience."

I think this characterization of Cruz's comments might be valid in the abstract, but not if you consider it in the specific context in which it was made.  The biggest story entering the Convention was the debate over addition of a "Conscience Clause", which would have permitted delegates whom voters bound to Trump to be unbound, and vote for someone other than Trump.  That gave "conscience" a very particularized, specific meaning at the RNC -- not voting for Trump.

I personally took Cruz's deliberate inclusion and emphasis of that phrase to be meant applied in that particular context, and therefore, his "vote your conscience" urging was really a thinly- veiled urging to not vote for Trump.  I believe that's why the reaction to his speech was what it was, and why he made the statements he did to his own constituents the following morning.  He didn't even try to play the innocent card "Oh, I really didn't mean anything by it."  He was pretty specific about not being a "lapdog", etc., and not giving his support to a man who had insulted him and his family.

Anyway, that's my reading of what happened.  Obviously, others may interpret that differently.

I'll also say that as much as I dislike Trump, Cruz's speech still bothered me.  But I admittedly was a pretty visceral "I won't vote for Trump" guy myself for quite awhile, and it took me time to get over that.  Ted has recently come out and, while not endorsing Trump, has absolutely hammered Hillary.  So maybe his (completely understandable) personal offense at what Trump said has waned a bit, and he's now going to work to see Hillary defeated.

In other words, I respect where he has ended up in this campaign, and why.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 04:10:06 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2016, 04:19:02 pm »


Anyway, that's my reading of what happened.  Obviously, others may interpret that differently.



Although I do interpret differently, as always I find your analysis reasoned and fair-minded.  Your standard of intellectual honesty is a good mark for us all.
James 1:20

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2016, 05:37:39 pm »
Great advice, Cruz. Especially since it was given at the Republican nominating convention! Vote your conscience and help Hillary Clinton becomes president and destroy your nation for the next two generations. "But, you'll feel good about yourself!" Stupid advice, Cruz. Everyone votes their conscience.

But he make sure everyone got the idea. "Let's all divide the vote" and give the worst, and most liberty-dangerous Democrat ever a good shot at the White House.

Dumb advice, Cruz, dumb. For being so smart, you were really dumb and butthurt at the convention. It was obvious for everyone to see: sour grapes.

If anyone seems butthurt around here, it's you with your incessant complaining about Ted Cruz.  Grow up.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2016, 06:16:20 pm »
Although I do interpret differently, as always I find your analysis reasoned and fair-minded.  Your standard of intellectual honesty is a good mark for us all.

Thanks.  It's easy to be honest when you're truly torn and can see both sides.  I've made my decision, but it wasn't easy and I can see why others may come to a different conclusion.

It's a shame that so many others have made this personal, because it does damage to the movement and the party that likely will last beyond this election, when what really will be needed is for generally like-minded folks to band together.

Trump won't have destroyed the GOP or conservative movement.  We'll have done it to ourselves.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2016, 06:22:29 pm »
There are a few who have reached the conclusion, perhaps with reluctance and definitely with acknowledgement of his manifest shortcomings, that they must support Trump in the hope that he will be better for the US military.  While I don't share in that hope I do respect it, as I respect those who express it with fairness and tact, and I won't reduce their position to a label.

@HoustonSam

Which is why this division seems so bizarre to me.
I know, and I understand, the JFK, Heidi Tweets, etc.
So Cruz has made I choice not to outwardly support Trump, yet he is doing nothing in the background to harm him, and has, in fact, gone after Hillary regularly.
There are plenty of Texans who will vote for Trump for President now, and will also vote for Cruz for Senate in 2018.
This article was about how Cruz is trying to keep a senate majority, yet you would think he attacked Trump, the way everyone seems to be responding.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2016, 06:34:54 pm »
@HoustonSam

Which is why this division seems so bizarre to me.
I know, and I understand, the JFK, Heidi Tweets, etc.
So Cruz has made I choice not to outwardly support Trump, yet he is doing nothing in the background to harm him, and has, in fact, gone after Hillary regularly.
There are plenty of Texans who will vote for Trump for President now, and will also vote for Cruz for Senate in 2018.
This article was about how Cruz is trying to keep a senate majority, yet you would think he attacked Trump, the way everyone seems to be responding.

I can only conclude that many in the pro-Trump camp, including the candidate himself, the candidate's family, and many posting here, are more motivated by petty personal animus than by any vision of what is truly good for the US.  Cruz has not spoken a single negative word about Trump since he (Cruz) suspended his candidacy the night of the Indiana primary, and is working hard toward a continued Republican majority in the Senate and to make the case against Hillary, all of which helps Trump.

But apparently that is not good enough, unless he kisses the ring of the man who lied about and slandered his family.

It's amazing.  But it does clarify a lot of things about a lot of people.  And clarity is a good thing to have.

James 1:20

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #81 on: September 20, 2016, 07:05:07 pm »
The only people I question are those who say they will vote for Hillary or Stein. I'm no fan of Johnson, but he was a two term governor of NM. I'm still holding out hope that Trump will consistently act more Presidential from now until November, but the trend isn't good.
That's why I will vote for the Constitution Party candidate Darrell Castle, as much to promote the Party Platform based on Original Intent as for the man.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: (Politico) Cruz’s conundrum: Help GOP save the Senate?
« Reply #82 on: September 20, 2016, 07:12:49 pm »
Conservatives have been begging the African American community to stop their blind allegiance to the D party and to start voting their conscience.  But now we want folks to have blind allegiance to their party and to not vote their conscience. 

It gets so confusing.
No confusion involved. Both Parties have 'plantations'. The Republican Party has been treating Constitutional Conservatives like the Democrat Party has been treating minorities. The Republicans have paid lip service, and occasionally tossed the Conservatives a bone, but aren't as likely to follow through on their lip service as the Democrats. They both treat their captive voters with contempt because they don't think they have anywhere else to go.
It's time to wreck that concept and get off the plantation.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis