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Offline ABX

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« on: September 03, 2016, 06:45:24 PM »
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The single payer National Health Service of England has announced that it will ban smokers and people with a body mass index of 30 or above from routine surgeries.

http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/the-obese-and-smokers-banned-from-routine-surgery-in-most-severe-ever-ration-by-the-nhs


Online truth_seeker

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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2016, 07:36:58 PM »


Guess what? I knew a guy that needed a liver transplant. He was told to lose some weight, because the supply of available donor organs would ALWAYS go to patients with the highest probability for successful operation outcomes.

He started losing weight, but gave up. He died an awful death a few years later.

OTOH I have a BIL that needed a liver transplant, and kept himself in the best possible condition, so that he qualified for the scarce supply of donor organs. He eventually got a good donor organ, and is doing very well.

The point is that we already "ration" healthcare in the US.

Another small example of rationed care: When you go to an emergency room without a life threatening condition, be prepared for long waits. 
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Offline driftdiver

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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2016, 07:49:17 PM »
Guess what? I knew a guy that needed a liver transplant. He was told to lose some weight, because the supply of available donor organs would ALWAYS go to patients with the highest probability for successful operation outcomes.

He started losing weight, but gave up. He died an awful death a few years later.

OTOH I have a BIL that needed a liver transplant, and kept himself in the best possible condition, so that he qualified for the scarce supply of donor organs. He eventually got a good donor organ, and is doing very well.

The point is that we already "ration" healthcare in the US.

Another small example of rationed care: When you go to an emergency room without a life threatening condition, be prepared for long waits.

Not even close to the same.   How can you defend a single payer system?
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Online GtHawk

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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2016, 10:51:11 PM »
Guess what? I knew a guy that needed a liver transplant. He was told to lose some weight, because the supply of available donor organs would ALWAYS go to patients with the highest probability for successful operation outcomes.

He started losing weight, but gave up. He died an awful death a few years later.

OTOH I have a BIL that needed a liver transplant, and kept himself in the best possible condition, so that he qualified for the scarce supply of donor organs. He eventually got a good donor organ, and is doing very well.

The point is that we already "ration" healthcare in the US.

Another small example of rationed care: When you go to an emergency room without a life threatening condition, be prepared for long waits.
As I read the article it says routine surgery not drastic life saving surgery, I wonder do they exclude the working obese and smokers from paying their full share of taxes for healthcare too? The Brits are awesome at rationing health care to all but the wealthy and pretty darn good at shortening the lifespan of the poor. Democrats must be positively orgasmic when they look at the British healthcare system.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 03:41:13 AM by GtHawk »

Online Fishrrman

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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2016, 10:52:24 PM »
driftdiver wrote:
"How can you defend a single payer system?"

He wasn't.
Seemed to me he was just giving an anecdotal example of how even our healthcare system will "ration" care as it functions now.

But if o'er-the-ILLary wins in November, single-payer is what we're probably going to end up with.

By the way, drift, who ya votin' for?

Offline driftdiver

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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 12:47:13 AM »
driftdiver wrote:
"How can you defend a single payer system?"

He wasn't.
Seemed to me he was just giving an anecdotal example of how even our healthcare system will "ration" care as it functions now.

But if o'er-the-ILLary wins in November, single-payer is what we're probably going to end up with.

By the way, drift, who ya votin' for?

Organ transplants are "rationed" here because there aren't enough.    Not because the govt decided not to do them.   Big difference.

Don't know who I'm voting for.  Both losers have said they support the single payer system.  But you know that.
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2016, 01:10:25 AM »
Not even close to the same.   How can you defend a single payer system?
If you think I defended single payer, your English comprehension is no good.
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Offline driftdiver

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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2016, 01:15:25 AM »
If you think I defended single payer, your English comprehension is no good.

Oh my comprehension is fine.
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geronl

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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2016, 02:42:04 AM »
and they're the ones paying the taxes

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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2016, 04:04:16 AM »
and they're the ones paying the taxes
Just look at what we do here to smokers and to an extent drinkers. In California they followed that liberal Meathead Reiner a few years back and voted to pass higher taxes on cigarettes because it was for the children. Sin taxes are a favorite of liberals and it's always for the children, but I don't believe any of the money ever reaches the children, it seems to go to line the pockets of liberals and their advertising agencies. Back in the 70's when I was dumb and smoked, I paid 45 cents a pack, now with all the BS SJW taxes the smokers have been saddled with a pack is over $8, that's just insane! And of course while they want everyone to quit smoking, the morons that are happy to vote to burden someone else with taxes never consider that if all the smokers quit, the tax burden will fall on them because social welfare programs never die.

Sorry if I committed a :hijack: but :dammit: :poohappen: and this stuff makes me :#@$%:

Offline Smokin Joe

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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2016, 06:04:29 AM »
Just look at what we do here to smokers and to an extent drinkers. In California they followed that liberal Meathead Reiner a few years back and voted to pass higher taxes on cigarettes because it was for the children. Sin taxes are a favorite of liberals and it's always for the children, but I don't believe any of the money ever reaches the children, it seems to go to line the pockets of liberals and their advertising agencies. Back in the 70's when I was dumb and smoked, I paid 45 cents a pack, now with all the BS SJW taxes the smokers have been saddled with a pack is over $8, that's just insane! And of course while they want everyone to quit smoking, the morons that are happy to vote to burden someone else with taxes never consider that if all the smokers quit, the tax burden will fall on them because social welfare programs never die.

Sorry if I committed a :hijack: but :dammit: :poohappen: and this stuff makes me :#@$%:
Well, if you think that's it, but wait, there's more!

As a smoker, I paid more for health insurance (understandable, I guess, although it seemed to keep my BMI a mite lower), more for auto insurance (liability, but not full coverage, so cigarette damage had nothing to do with it), and more for homeowner's insurance (I assume because of fire risk). When I quit smoking cigarettes over ten years ago, I took up smokeless tobacco. My lungs feel much better now, My hands are free, and because the variety I 'chew' is mild, I don't travel around spitting in a cup or bottle, I just swallow the juice. (I also believe that cured me of a developing ulcer, but that is another story).

The point is that about the same time I quit smoking, the bar was moved from "smoker" to "tobacco user".  I am still paying extra as a "tobacco user", even though my hands are free, there is no fire risk, I am not distracted by trying to reach the ash tray the auto manufacturers put on the passenger side of the vehicle near the floor, and there is no risk from 'second hand spit', especially considering I swallow the juice. My only consolation is that I can go most anywhere, and continue to use tobacco, and those there are none the wiser.

That said, if you walk into an ER around here, under your own power, without a grossly disfiguring injury or blood running all over, pack a lunch, a book to read, and maybe bring your own blanket, it will take a while.
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Offline driftdiver

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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2016, 07:19:08 AM »
Well, if you think that's it, but wait, there's more!

As a smoker, I paid more for health insurance (understandable, I guess, although it seemed to keep my BMI a mite lower), more for auto insurance (liability, but not full coverage, so cigarette damage had nothing to do with it), and more for homeowner's insurance (I assume because of fire risk). When I quit smoking cigarettes over ten years ago, I took up smokeless tobacco. My lungs feel much better now, My hands are free, and because the variety I 'chew' is mild, I don't travel around spitting in a cup or bottle, I just swallow the juice. (I also believe that cured me of a developing ulcer, but that is another story).

The point is that about the same time I quit smoking, the bar was moved from "smoker" to "tobacco user".  I am still paying extra as a "tobacco user", even though my hands are free, there is no fire risk, I am not distracted by trying to reach the ash tray the auto manufacturers put on the passenger side of the vehicle near the floor, and there is no risk from 'second hand spit', especially considering I swallow the juice. My only consolation is that I can go most anywhere, and continue to use tobacco, and those there are none the wiser.

That said, if you walk into an ER around here, under your own power, without a grossly disfiguring injury or blood running all over, pack a lunch, a book to read, and maybe bring your own blanket, it will take a while.

Our ERS are pretty good.   20 to 30 mins tops most of the time.   
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Offline uglybiker

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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2016, 07:30:10 AM »
... I paid 45 cents a pack, now with all the BS SJW taxes the smokers have been saddled with a pack is over $8, that's just insane!
That's about what I'm paying now for smokes.
Of course, I have to stuff 'em myself.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2016, 07:34:58 AM »
Our ERS are pretty good.   20 to 30 mins tops most of the time.
We have no where near the population y'all do, think 'Podunk'...  "Is the doctor awake?"
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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geronl

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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2016, 11:19:18 AM »
Just look at what we do here to smokers and to an extent drinkers. In California they followed that liberal Meathead Reiner a few years back and voted to pass higher taxes on cigarettes because it was for the children. Sin taxes are a favorite of liberals and it's always for the children,

Sorry if I committed a :hijack: but :dammit: :poohappen: and this stuff makes me :#@$%:

Cigarettes are probably $2 a pack without the taxes

Oceander

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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2016, 12:37:48 PM »
Guess what? I knew a guy that needed a liver transplant. He was told to lose some weight, because the supply of available donor organs would ALWAYS go to patients with the highest probability for successful operation outcomes.

He started losing weight, but gave up. He died an awful death a few years later.

OTOH I have a BIL that needed a liver transplant, and kept himself in the best possible condition, so that he qualified for the scarce supply of donor organs. He eventually got a good donor organ, and is doing very well.

The point is that we already "ration" healthcare in the US.

Another small example of rationed care: When you go to an emergency room without a life threatening condition, be prepared for long waits. 

A narrowly-targeted rationing system based on a resource that is very scarce (we can't exactly grow 'em to order), not fungible (blood type matches and all that), and requires very complicated surgery to transplant is absolutely incomparable to "routine surgery" which is a resource that is - or would be in a non-socialist system - available in reasonable quantities (i.e., it's not particularly scarce), can be increased because, though it takes time, we can "grow" more surgeons, and - by definition - is not complicated.

The NHS (UK) rationing is based on a left of center political agenda and the "shortages" it's supposed to deal with are the very ones created by socialist medicine in the first place.

Offline ABX

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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2016, 12:45:41 PM »
Guess what? I knew a guy that needed a liver transplant. He was told to lose some weight, because the supply of available donor organs would ALWAYS go to patients with the highest probability for successful operation outcomes.

He started losing weight, but gave up. He died an awful death a few years later.

OTOH I have a BIL that needed a liver transplant, and kept himself in the best possible condition, so that he qualified for the scarce supply of donor organs. He eventually got a good donor organ, and is doing very well.

The point is that we already "ration" healthcare in the US.

Another small example of rationed care: When you go to an emergency room without a life threatening condition, be prepared for long waits.

You are falsely equating individual medical decisions between doctors and patients based on health factors to blanket government decisions based on societal engineering and financial rationing.

Online GtHawk

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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2016, 02:43:29 PM »

That said, if you walk into an ER around here, under your own power, without a grossly disfiguring injury or blood running all over, pack a lunch, a book to read, and maybe bring your own blanket, it will take a while.
Years back when I was working I had an accident with flap sanding wheel on a hand held grinder, don't ask, the result was I flayed the knuckle on my index finger(non shooting hand thankfully) and drove myself to the ER with my hand wrapped up, after two hours of waiting while they took in many of dubious legality with coughs I had had enough, I went back up to check in window and started unwrapping my hand and when the women asked what I was doing I told her that apparently I would have to be bleeding all over the waiting room to be considered urgent so I was going to do my best to comply. I was seen very quickly after that, you wouldn't believe that they could fit 27 stitches into a knuckle.

Offline Smokin Joe

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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2016, 03:15:44 PM »
Years back when I was working I had an accident with flap sanding wheel on a hand held grinder, don't ask, the result was I flayed the knuckle on my index finger(non shooting hand thankfully) and drove myself to the ER with my hand wrapped up, after two hours of waiting while they took in many of dubious legality with coughs I had had enough, I went back up to check in window and started unwrapping my hand and when the women asked what I was doing I told her that apparently I would have to be bleeding all over the waiting room to be considered urgent so I was going to do my best to comply. I was seen very quickly after that, you wouldn't believe that they could fit 27 stitches into a knuckle.
In my bad old days I laid down the Hog and my face came close enough to the road that my glasses frame caught the pavement while I was sliding along reviewing braking technique on newly wet pavement. the result was a bit too much cut under my eye for a band aid, and knowing I'd have to go get sewed up. Well, I rode the bike home, called a cab, and took my cut face and scraped up knuckles to the ER. After being repeatedly questioned about fighting, I managed to get the folks there to calm down and believe I had fallen down (which was true, I just didn't give them all the details).

Into the treatment room I go, sit on the exam table, and this little doctor comes in.

Now, I'm sitting there in my full biker glory, just home from a three day charity run, still in my leathers, smelling of old beer and sweat, grubby from road grime, and at least a head and shoulders taller than the doctor, who got right up in my face and said with an Indian (dot not feather) accent "I think you've been fighting."

"No, Doc, just like I told the lady, I had my hands full, and I fell down."

"I still think you've been fighting."

Calmly, gently, "No Doc, just like I told the lady out front, I fell down."

Again, back in my face, "I still think you've been fighting".

About then I had a flash of the image I was projecting, being so clean, well dressed, and all, so I looked right through the back of his eye sockets and told him in a low growl, "Shut the f**k up and sew up my face."

He did a great job!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2016, 03:36:52 PM »
I lived under that 'healthcare' system for awhile and witnessed newspaper articles about a woman having forceps inadvertently sewn into her stomach following 'routine' surgery.

Nothing is routine once the government dictates the process.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2016, 03:51:02 PM »
I lived under that 'healthcare' system for awhile and witnessed newspaper articles about a woman having forceps inadvertently sewn into her stomach following 'routine' surgery.

Nothing is routine once the government dictates the process.
One of the saddest scams ever perpetrated on the American People was Obamacare. It isn't health care, but a universal requirement to buy insurance.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.


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