Author Topic: 'Why not Texit?': Texas nationalists look to the Brexit vote for inspiration (from British newspaper)  (Read 17630 times)

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Offline MACVSOG68

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The great majority of Texans feel they are citizens of both the United States and the State of Texas.

I bet a majority of the citizens of most states feel the same way.

 

And they would be right as guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.
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Offline ABX

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The great majority of Texans feel they are citizens of both the United States and the State of Texas.....

Up until recently, it seemed no matter what your walk of life, socioeconomic situation, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, or if you drove a Ford or Chevy, a Texan was a Texan first. You didn't identify with or disassociate with anyone because of any of those other classifications. Things have changed the past few years.

Whenever I travel, when someone asks where I'm from, I always say Texas, not the US. I get a better reaction. Surprisingly the Czechs and Germans absolutely love Texans and think of us as very unique- not negatively stereotyped like most Americans.

Offline Ghost Bear

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The great majority of Texans feel they are citizens of both the United States and the State of Texas.

I bet a majority of the citizens of most states feel the same way.

Your conjecturing of the beliefs of people is getting way over the top.

It's funny, but when I lived in Michigan (where I was born and raised) I didn't feel the same way; sure, I recognized that I lived in the state, and rooted for it over out-of-state rivals (boo Ohio State!) but living in Texas I really feel it. I'm a Texan, in a way that I wasn't a Michigander (or Michiganian if you prefer).
The more people I meet, the more convinced I am that I should be a hermit living in a cabin in a deep forest.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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It's funny, but when I lived in Michigan (where I was born and raised) I didn't feel the same way; sure, I recognized that I lived in the state, and rooted for it over out-of-state rivals (boo Ohio State!) but living in Texas I really feel it. I'm a Texan, in a way that I wasn't a Michigander (or Michiganian if you prefer).
I have lived in several other states and it seems those observations from your time in Michigan reflect what I experienced in those other states.

Many different reasons for Texas being different, but prominently is the fact that this state had to fight to earn its freedom, similar to the USA, and that it was a proud country in its own right for a number of years prior to choosing to become included in the USA.

If you ever visit the state Capital of Austin, you can still see the bulding that housed the French embassy, not too far away from the state Capitol  that looks similar to the Capitol building in DC but that just happens to be 19' taller.

One legend to be dispelled: we do not fly the flag of Texas above the flag of the USA.  However, we frequently fly them at the same height, and at times the flag of Texas only.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Up until recently, it seemed no matter what your walk of life, socioeconomic situation, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, or if you drove a Ford or Chevy, a Texan was a Texan first. You didn't identify with or disassociate with anyone because of any of those other classifications. Things have changed the past few years.

Whenever I travel, when someone asks where I'm from, I always say Texas, not the US. I get a better reaction. Surprisingly the Czechs and Germans absolutely love Texans and think of us as very unique- not negatively stereotyped like most Americans.

When I lived in Europe years ago, people would ask where in the US I was from.  When I said Texas, they immediately thought of the TV show Dallas, thinking everyone was an oilman, lived on a spread and wore cowboy boots. (Well, I did wear my elephant skin boots with my suit at our oil company office in London quite frequently so they had the last parts from observations).

That old TV show is likely to be still aired on the Continent, and the characterization of Texans remains quite strong.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline Sanguine

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.....

If you ever visit the state Capital of Austin....the state Capitol  that looks similar to the Capitol building in DC but that just happens to be 19' taller.

....we do not fly the flag of Texas above the flag of the USA.  However, we frequently fly them at the same height, and at times the flag of Texas only.

Yes, the symbolism is very telling.
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Online Smokin Joe

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The tenth amendment doesn't mention many things....so what? That doesn't mean that because something is not specifically mentioned you have the right to do it.  For instance, the constitution doesn't forbid states from making everybody in a certain state paint themselves purple and wear chicken feathers. That doesn't mean states should go ahead and do so.
A requirement to paint yourself any color or wear any specific sort of adornment would be a clear violation of the First Amendment Right to freedom of expression.

The Constitution does not specifically state that no State can leave the United States. Because that is not specifically proscribed, that right (by virtue of the Tenth Amendment) is reserved to the States and to the People.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Whenever I travel and tell people I am from Texas, I get similar responses that you all are describing.
Tumbleweeds, oil wells, Longhorns on Cadillacs, boots and hats, and guns, always get asked about guns.
Especially in Europe.

Online Smokin Joe

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The great majority of Texans feel they are citizens of both the United States and the State of Texas.

I bet a majority of the citizens of most states feel the same way.

Your conjecturing of the beliefs of people is getting way over the top.
While that may be what we have today, recall that Robert E. Lee, having been offered command of the Federal Army of the Potomac, declined and went back to his native Virginia to take command of troops there. Lee was a Virginian first, as were many folks in those days, ordering their primary loyalty to their State.

Those States had armies, and the Armies of Pennsylvania and Massachusetts invaded the State of my ancestors, that State remaining occupied through the war.

Regardless of which side they fought on, the regiments were not known as "the Federal Army" so much as the 1st Wisconsin, 2nd New York, or on the other side, the 1st Virginia, 1st Maryland Volunteers, etc.
This was before the 17th Amendment when the State Legislatures still elected the Senate, and State Government had far more power since usurped by the Federal Government.

Trying to measure original intent by the pap that passes for "government class" (not even civics) today, and the creeping totalitarianism of the past 100+ years is silly. You won't get there. Study the attitudes of the people when the concepts were still fresh. Then examine the economic reasons for the war to retain the South by force.
 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Online Smokin Joe

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Why don't you try and think things through. A state is having success with business thriving and the people reasonably happy. But then a group of people who are not happy for various reasons convince a bunch of other people to go along with them and leave the union. I don't know if you'd want a simple majority or two thirds...whatever.
So here you have a state with mostly content people all of a sudden members of a foreign country.
Are you serious? You say every state has the right to secede.  That means states like Iowa or Nebraska could secede and be an independent country. Of course, so could any other states. I suppose you think those states could then rejoin the Union if they felt like.
Do you realize what a catastrophe those events would entail? You'd have unhappy citizens who were previously happy leaving the "foreign" countries to get away from the crazy people.
But there are crazy people in every state, and they could all at times convince otherwise sane people to join them in secession. You'd have people going from state to state (or "independent" country to state) and back again.  And we haven't even gotten into the question about how an "independent" country like Iowa would organize itself and create its own currency, foreign trade, etc.
This kind of crazy secession (and supposedly unsecession) could go on endlessly. Utter insanity.
So take some time and think about the consequences of legal secession and the genius of the Founders in not putting legal secession in the constitution.
Well, let's back up. Suppose one or more of the former colonies decided not to ratify the Constitution? They would have remained an independent and sovereign state. Some of those colonies, by virtue of ports, resources, or industry, were more prosperous than others.
Only a very small and noninvasive Federal Government made the idea of joining in such a compact desirable, with the States left to manage their own affairs with the constraints of the Bill of Rights and other small concessions to the Federal Government, primarily those of modest taxation to provide for a Navy for mutual defense. Suppose, however, Rhode Island had decided to remain independent, surrounded for the most part by others who would protect their interests by defending against some other foreign power (European) getting a foothold on these shores and using it to further imperial designs. had adopted the currency and coin of the Federal Government next door to make matters of trade easier (simply declared it legal tender), and chose to pay whatever tariffs imposed for the freedom from the imposition of tariffs on their foreign trade with those not under that Federal Governance.
Would they have been forced, by arms or otherwise to join?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Offline Ghost Bear

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I have lived in several other states and it seems those observations from your time in Michigan reflect what I experienced in those other states.

Many different reasons for Texas being different, but prominently is the fact that this state had to fight to earn its freedom, similar to the USA, and that it was a proud country in its own right for a number of years prior to choosing to become included in the USA.

If you ever visit the state Capital of Austin, you can still see the bulding that housed the French embassy, not too far away from the state Capitol  that looks similar to the Capitol building in DC but that just happens to be 19' taller.

One legend to be dispelled: we do not fly the flag of Texas above the flag of the USA.  However, we frequently fly them at the same height, and at times the flag of Texas only.

I've lived all of my time in Texas in or near to Austin. I've been here going on 27 years, longer than I lived in Michigan by two years.  I've been down to the Capital many times, although I haven't been inside the building yet.  ^-^  My wife (a San Antonio girl born-and-raised) used to be very interested in genealogy, and we spent many Saturday afternoons visiting the Genealogy Library inside of the LBJ Library building, quite near the Capital itself.

It's been a few years though... nowadays I'm just as glad to avoid going in to Austin, if I can. I'm content to watch the craziness there from just a little bit up the road...
The more people I meet, the more convinced I am that I should be a hermit living in a cabin in a deep forest.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I've lived all of my time in Texas in or near to Austin. I've been here going on 27 years, longer than I lived in Michigan by two years.  I've been down to the Capital many times, although I haven't been inside the building yet.  ^-^  My wife (a San Antonio girl born-and-raised) used to be very interested in genealogy, and we spent many Saturday afternoons visiting the Genealogy Library inside of the LBJ Library building, quite near the Capital itself.

It's been a few years though... nowadays I'm just as glad to avoid going in to Austin, if I can. I'm content to watch the craziness there from just a little bit up the road...
I grew up in Austin when it was a quaint state capital and left after graduating from UT.

I think too many kids from other reaches of Texas fell in love with Austin and turned it into the crazy world of tollroads, food trucks and bring-your-own-bag-to-HEB.

When I lived there, we had moonlight every night(and a song about it), buildings downtown were no higher than the capital building, no bats lived the bridge and 6th street was not the place to be. (Also we played real football in town).

My mom remains there, so I am forced to still visit.

As far as geneology, one of my relatives was an early settler in Austin and helped lay out the new state capital, later becoming mayor.  Another was my avatar who died fighting for freedom at the Alamo.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Online TomSea

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Show me the provision in the constitution giving Texas extra rights that other states don't have.  The idea that Texas has the right to secede if it feels like it is baloney.

They have every right to secede like every other state; right now though, the majority of kids in the school systems are minority,  this may well not be an issue in the future.

Online TomSea

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I have lived in several other states and it seems those observations from your time in Michigan reflect what I experienced in those other states.

Many different reasons for Texas being different, but prominently is the fact that this state had to fight to earn its freedom, similar to the USA, and that it was a proud country in its own right for a number of years prior to choosing to become included in the USA.

If you ever visit the state Capital of Austin, you can still see the bulding that housed the French embassy, not too far away from the state Capitol  that looks similar to the Capitol building in DC but that just happens to be 19' taller.

One legend to be dispelled: we do not fly the flag of Texas above the flag of the USA.  However, we frequently fly them at the same height, and at times the flag of Texas only.

If we are talking about history, let's also remember, Texas fought for slavery, that wasn't too free for the slaves.  Historically, there have been a high number of lynchings as well.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html

Offline thackney

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None of your arguments about oppression by the fed. gov. (which does happen at times...and opinions vary of course) provides for state secession.
Like I said, citizens have the right to rebel against tyranny from the fed. gov. It's one reason we have the second amendment. But it still does not legitimize  state secession.

So they have the right to rebel, but must continue to submit to an oppressive government?

How do you envision that?  Chanting in the streets but no change in authority?
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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So they have the right to rebel, but must continue to submit to an oppressive government?

How do you envision that?  Chanting in the streets but no change in authority?

Once we're into a full on war legality has no concept anymore. Might makes right in war, always has, always will.

Offline thackney

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Once we're into a full on war legality has no concept anymore. Might makes right in war, always has, always will.

If Texas chose to secede, it would take the Feds to decide if war was required.

Note that the Feds have recognized many other countries that broke away from their previous parent country.  Freedom for them and not for us?
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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If Texas chose to secede, it would take the Feds to decide if war was required.

Note that the Feds have recognized many other countries that broke away from their previous parent country.  Freedom for them and not for us?

Kook talk. What percentage of Texans wants to secede? My guess is extremely low. And of course a seceded Texas will not be "pure" enough for the kooks, so Texas will further splinter into a bunch of  fiefdoms.

Offline HoustonSam

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If Texas chose to secede, it would take the Feds to decide if war was required.

As it did the first time.  Contrary to popular belief, the states of the Deep South did not fight a war to perpetuate slavery; they seceded from the union to do so.  The Lincoln Administration decided to turn the issue of secession into a war.
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Online TomSea

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If I remember correctly, the South attacked the North first and that was at Fort Sumpter: http://history1800s.about.com/od/civilwar/a/fort-sumter-attack.htm

Also, even if we go with the supposition that "it was a war over the secession of States"; this does not change the fact, that Texas had slavery; that is part of the freedom that was mentioned here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Texas

Offline thackney

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Kook talk. What percentage of Texans wants to secede?

So said the Tories in the early 1770s.

Update: An effort to force a floor vote on secession at the ongoing Texas Republican Party convention came up two votes shy in a committee on Friday.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/the-texas-secession-movement-is-getting-kind-of-serious/
May 13, 2016

To be sure, that seems to be a relatively small group. The Texas secession movement says 22 out of the 270 county GOP conventions passed some kind of independence resolution this spring.

Quote
My guess is extremely low. And of course a seceded Texas will not be "pure" enough for the kooks, so Texas will further splinter into a bunch of  fiefdoms.

Keep guessing and making stuff up.
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Online TomSea

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Quote
The issue of slavery became a source of contention between the Anglo-American (called that because they spoke English) settlers and Spanish governors. The governors feared the growth in the Anglo-American population in Texas, and for various reasons, by the early 19th century, they and their superiors in Mexico City disapproved of expanding slavery. In 1829 the Guerrero decree conditionally abolished slavery throughout Mexican territories. It was a decision that increased tensions with slaveholders among the Anglo-Americans.

After the Texas Revolution ended in 1836, the Constitution of the Republic of Texas made slavery legal. The General Provisions of the Constitution forbade any slave owner from freeing his slaves without the consent of Congress and forbade Congress from making any law that restricted the slave trade or emancipated slaves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Texas

So, perhaps, if we study the history of the Texas War for Independence, as I know we had a class on that in Middle School; one may see that part of the war for independence may have been to establish slavery as law.


Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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So said the Tories in the early 1770s.

Update: An effort to force a floor vote on secession at the ongoing Texas Republican Party convention came up two votes shy in a committee on Friday.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/the-texas-secession-movement-is-getting-kind-of-serious/
May 13, 2016

To be sure, that seems to be a relatively small group. The Texas secession movement says 22 out of the 270 county GOP conventions passed some kind of independence resolution this spring.

Keep guessing and making stuff up.

Texas will be blue in a few years anyway.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Kook talk. What percentage of Texans wants to secede? My guess is extremely low. And of course a seceded Texas will not be "pure" enough for the kooks, so Texas will further splinter into a bunch of  fiefdoms.

I don't think the number of people wanting to break away from England and form their own country, pre-1776 was over 50%, so I suppose they were "kooks", too?

Texas secession isn't some "Lord of the Flies" scenario.
Why, we have paved roads and running water and everything! LOL.
"Lord of the Mosquitoes", maybe, but not "Lord of the flies".

If the 10th amendment had actually been followed and not taking such a beating by the Federal government, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Offline thackney

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