Author Topic: 'Why not Texit?': Texas nationalists look to the Brexit vote for inspiration (from British newspaper)  (Read 22430 times)

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Offline goatprairie

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The constitution states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

When the Federal Government won't follow it's own founding documents, it is tyranny.
Refer me to the section of the constitution that SPECIFICALLY provides for secession. The tenth amendment is what it is....it defines the powers of the fed. gov and leaves the rest to the states. By only very twisted logic can a person interpret that to mean the states have the right to secede.

Offline goatprairie

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You really need a good read of the Constitution.

It clearly states that this is a Union of States, not a country that happens to have states within it.

It also clearly states what powers these states give to this Union, with any not expressed reserved to each state.

Why is that difficult for you to understand?
What does the word union mean to you? Don't you think that if the Founders had believed that states had the right to secede if they felt like it, they would have put it the constitution with specific instructions.
You're like all the states rightists. You're trying reason backwards. You think South had the right to secede so you're going to find some part of the constitution that supposedly gives states the right to secede. Except it doesn't. The tenth amendment merely defines the powers of the fed. gov and the states. These powers are meant for use WITHIN!!! the union. In no way does it provide for secession.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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As a conservative living in Massachusetts, I would prefer they stay. We need their votes. It's that simple. I know you want to wave the rest of the union away, but I really think you should reconsider.

Sorry, but I lived near you in Connecticut for a number of years, and now that I am back in Texas, I have even more reason for Texas to leave this Union.  Sorta like the many NY upstaters wanting to leave NYC to its own.

You are welcome to join us if you can pass the necessary tests for admittance.

I can let you know a few of the questions involve: what is the best wood to use to BBQ, how do you say the word meaning more than one person, and how many stars on our the state flag.  Oh, there will be a firearms accuracy test as well.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Lets look at this logically:

if we allowed every state, locality and ultimately ... individual to secede from the union at will we'd be a patchwork of fiefdoms. However, the opposite is forcing everyone to be a part of the union against their will, also not a good situation. What should the rule be for how a state can lawfully secede? A state referendum? Should localities be allowed to secede if so?

Again, I would urge Texas to rethink. I am a Massachusetts conservative and we really need Texas votes: electoral, and Congressional.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Sorry, but I lived near you in Connecticut for a number of years, and now that I am back in Texas, I have even more reason for Texas to leave this Union.  Sorta like the many NY upstaters wanting to leave NYC to its own.

You are welcome to join us if you can pass the necessary tests for admittance.

I can let you know a few of the questions involve: what is the best wood to use to BBQ, how do you say the word meaning more than one person, and how many stars on our the state flag.  Oh, there will be a firearms accuracy test as well.

Politically NYC sucks but damn if it isn't an amazing city. I'd prefer it remain part of the union. I'm proud to have it in the US.

Offline goatprairie

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Yeah but I'd expect 20+ states to follow, and Austin be the new capitol of a smaller USA.

Our Federal govt is at a financial dead end, at some point it won't be wish or desire as much as it is necessity.
Tell me exactly how the people who want to secede are going to go about it. They all get together and say we're seceding or words to that effect? So the rest of the state including the authorities with guns are just going to say alright, you win? How are they going to do it? Be specific.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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What does the word union mean to you? Don't you think that if the Founders had believed that states had the right to secede if they felt like it, they would have put it the constitution with specific instructions.
You're like all the states rightists. You're trying reason backwards. You think South had the right to secede so you're going to find some part of the constitution that supposedly gives states the right to secede. Except it doesn't. The tenth amendment merely defines the powers of the fed. gov and the states. These powers are meant for use WITHIN!!! the union. In no way does it provide for secession.

It is not a forced union.  And there are no specific instructions in the Constitution, so those rights are reserved for the States so, surprise, secession is there in the 10th Amendment.

You really desperately need to reread the document.  Obviously, the libs are interpreting it for you.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Politically NYC sucks but damn if it isn't an amazing city. I'd prefer it remain part of the union. I'm proud to have it in the US.

And I can say the same about Massachusetts:  Proud to have it in the US, but boy does it suck politically.  Funny though, after living in the South, West Coast and New England, I considered the people in New England  to be the most patriotic of the three.  Just can't figure out why their politics are sometimes as crazy as California's.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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It is not a forced union.  And there are no specific instructions in the Constitution, so those rights are reserved for the States so, surprise, secession is there in the 10th Amendment.

You really desperately need to reread the document.  Obviously, the libs are interpreting it for you.

It's just your opinion, nothing more.

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In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that, legally speaking, Texas had remained a United States state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

Offline Smokin Joe

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Borders change all the time. It doesn't have to be the result of a violent struggle.

We are more divided than ever. Why not recognize it and go our separate ways?
That was the question back when, too. These United States were no longer united. It was, after all a federation, a republic composed of the several States, with a Federal Government only to issue money, keep the post roads open, and provide for the common defense--and to settle disputes between those States. With the War of Northern Aggression, to force the States which seceded from the prior arrangement to return, These United States became The United States, and the Federal Government started a process of stripping the several States of their power and usurping that power to itself as a National Government, not a Federal Government.

How could those who penned the words that Government's just powers are derived from the consent of the governed force that association even after the people in those States had revoked their consent?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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And I can say the same about Massachusetts:  Proud to have it in the US, but boy does it suck politically.  Funny though, after living in the South, West Coast and New England, I considered the people in New England  to be the most patriotic of the three.  Just can't figure out why their politics are sometimes as crazy as California's.

I don't think our politics are as crazy as California's actully. Massachusetts is more "old Democrat" than the nuts and fruits variety in California. A Northeastern Illinois basically.

Offline HoustonSam

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Lets look at this logically:

What should the rule be for how a state can lawfully secede? A state referendum? Should localities be allowed to secede if so?

Again, I would urge Texas to rethink. I am a Massachusetts conservative and we really need Texas votes: electoral, and Congressional.

State referendum seems right.  If the localities voluntarily associated themselves together to create the state, as the states did to create the union, then the localities should enjoy the right to secession based on the same theory.
James 1:20

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Lets look at this logically:

if we allowed every state, locality and ultimately ... individual to secede from the union at will we'd be a patchwork of fiefdoms. However, the opposite is forcing everyone to be a part of the union against their will, also not a good situation. What should the rule be for how a state can lawfully secede? A state referendum? Should localities be allowed to secede if so?

Again, I would urge Texas to rethink. I am a Massachusetts conservative and we really need Texas votes: electoral, and Congressional.

I realize where you are coming from but my logic is that those who wish to drag down this country should be allowed to do so but not to the detriment of others.

It is why I believe states rights are paramount for this country.  As long as states are free to decide the economic, social and political laws for the citizens of that state, then any citizens that differs can move to another state.  Sooner or later, the state will have a rebellion as it sees citizens leaving in droves and its economy tanks.

The intrusion of the federal presence eliminates this.  As an example, if all laws or taxes are federal, then one cannot escape unless one leaves the country.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Borders change all the time. It doesn't have to be the result of a violent struggle.

We are more divided than ever. Why not recognize it and go our separate ways?

It's your typical internet conservative ridiculous reasoning. It's like TBL in 2011. We all left FR during the last primary, formed a new website called TBL. This web site was unique in that it allowed liberals. Well of course this angered the conservatives who left the site in a huff, formed a new second website. Well this allowed "RINO"s to post there. So the "true conservatives" left to form a third website, which is, last I checked identical to FreeRepublic. What's funny is that a few of the posters at this third website left there and now post here, over what I presume is the Trump vs. Cruz schism.

THere was a poster there named BobJ, an old FR exile, who was part of JR's inner circle, who predicted the website would splinter. And it did exactly that.

This constant desire by conservative to cry and take their ball and go home is a prescription for constant anarchy and chaos. It's babyish.  Maybe their true desire is to live in complete anarchy? I don't know.

I have no sympathy for these arguments as you can tell.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 12:31:24 am by Weird Tolkienish Figure »

Offline HoustonSam

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It's your typical internet conservative ridiculous reasoning.

This constant desire by conservative to cry and take their ball and go home is a prescription for constant anarchy and chaos. It's babyish.  Maybe their true desire is to live in complete anarchy? I don't know.


So the desire to secede might be unwise.  It does not follow that there is no right to secede.
James 1:20

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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It's your typical internet conservative ridiculous reasoning.
Unsure what to make of that, as I never heard of a 'typical internet conservative' before.

wish you would explain a bit more.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Unsure what to make of that, as I never heard of a 'typical internet conservative' before.

wish you would explain a bit more.

Just hear this sort of reasoning on the internet all the time "let's take our ball and leave". It gets ridiculous after a while.

Offline thackney

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Refer me to the section of the constitution that SPECIFICALLY provides for secession. The tenth amendment is what it is....it defines the powers of the fed. gov and leaves the rest to the states. By only very twisted logic can a person interpret that to mean the states have the right to secede.

You are missing the point. The federal government has already broken the agreement of the union of states.
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Offline goatprairie

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You are missing the point. The federal government has already broken the agreement of the union of states.
I'm not missing any point. You're missing the point. You do have the right to rebel against a tyrannical gov. But state secession and rebelling against a tyrannical gov. are necessarily the same thing. 
If you think the gov. is tyrannical (and sometimes it is, usually in petty forms) you first apply democratic methods to get rid of the tyranny.
 If the tyranny persists, and it is real tyranny, (citizens are arbitrarily being jailed, beaten, silenced, etc. in unconstitutional ways) then you must convince other tyrannized citizens of the problem and take measures which might become violent.
This is not the same thing as trying to get your state to leave the union. That issue has been settled. You can't  unilaterally do it.

Offline thackney

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I'm not missing any point. You're missing the point. You do have the right to rebel against a tyrannical gov. But state secession and rebelling against a tyrannical gov. are necessarily the same thing. 
If you think the gov. is tyrannical (and sometimes it is, usually in petty forms) you first apply democratic methods to get rid of the tyranny.

Multiple law suits about the abuse of power of the federal government have been ongoing for decades.  This isn't a new or unaddressed issue.

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If the tyranny persists, and it is real tyranny, (citizens are arbitrarily being jailed, beaten, silenced, etc. in unconstitutional ways) then you must convince other tyrannized citizens of the problem and take measures which might become violent.

Stolen property, loss of rights, armed attacks (Waco and others), unfair taxation, you know, similar items that proceeded the revolutionary war.


Quote
This is not the same thing as trying to get your state to leave the union. That issue has been settled. You can't  unilaterally do it.

That issue is only settled for those that don't want it.  Others have far different opinions.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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The constitution states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

When the Federal Government won't follow it's own founding documents, it is tyranny.

I am a BIG 10th amendment person.

Offline mirraflake

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What are you all going to do about your SS and Medicare??

Offline austingirl

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All the naysayers could go to the Texas Nationalist Movement website and learn about their efforts in the Texas State Legislature. Instead of trashing the idea- do your due diligence about the process.


http://www.thetnm.org/
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Offline thackney

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

http://www.thetnm.org/did_the_supreme_court_make_secession_illegal_in_texas_v_white

Texas v. White is a Supreme Court case that occurred after the War Between The States that dealt with bonds sold by the Confederate government of Texas. The post-war government wanted the bonds back from the person to whom they were sold. Although the legal status of Texas was at the heart of the case, the issue of secession was not the central point of the argument. However, the court took the opportunity to sound off on the issue. There have been volumes written about the problems with Texas v. White, but here are some of the key issues.

First, the Supreme Court is often wrong. Whether it’s the Dred Scott case which declared that natural rights did not extend to people of African descent or the ObamaCare case which expanded the “commerce clause” of the Constitution out of the bounds of the what the Framers intended, the Supreme Court is known for making very poor decisions which are later found to be wrong and immoral. Texas v. White is one of those and proponents are cut from the same cloth as the people that over 150 years ago believed that African-Americans were property.

Next, the majority opinion was crafted by Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who, by virtue of the fact that he had a direct relationship with the issue of the bonds while acting as the Secretary of the Treasury, should have recused himself. He did not. This is similar to Elena Kagan’s work for the Obama administration on ObamaCare, then, after her appointment to the Supreme Court, ruling on the same issue. In addition, five of the Justices were Lincoln appointees turning a decision by the Supreme Court into a political statement justifying the war.

Additionally, the logic that Chase uses in his opinion defies rational explanation. The decision is full of inconsistencies that, when exposed, make Texans shake their heads. In his dicta, Chase states that the Union is “indestructible” and then lists two methods for leaving the Union. He states that the Union is comprised of “indestructible states”. If that’s the case, then he should have explained that to West Virginia. That statement is not consistent with Article IV Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution and would also invalidate the annexation agreement between Texas and the United States that gives Texas the right to divide into 5 states. Chase bases his conclusions on his belief that the Constitution was a mere amendment to the Articles of Confederation thereby putting the United States under two conflicting governing documents and officially putting anyone who supports Texas v. White into the category of “wearers of tin foil hats”.

Finally, Texas v. White is found wanting in, not only the political tradition of the Founders, but also in a modern political context. At the end of World War 2 there were 54 recognized countries in the world. At the end of the 20th century, there were 192. The independence of the vast majority of these “new” countries were supported in their right of independence by the United States Federal Government. Either independence is a fundamental, moral right or it is not. Texas v. White, a Supreme Court decision from the 1860s says that it is not a fundamental right. However, 150 years of history, Federal Government policy and the spirit of the people say otherwise. Much like early Supreme Court cases declared slavery and segregation moral and legal, we live in a day and age where we find attitudes like this reprehensible.

In a land where people cherish the right of self-government, the ability to live free and regularly send the best of us to fight and die for that right for other people in the world, Texas v. White stands as an anachronism. Texas v. White, and support of it, is the worst kind of judicial activism, requires an amazing suspension of belief, is rooted in fundamental ignorance of the history and legal foundation of the Union, completely disregards the natural rights of the people, ignores the sovereign rights of the states and is the moral equivalent of supporting involuntary servitude.
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Offline austingirl

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At the end of World War 2 there were 54 recognized countries in the world. At the end of the 20th century, there were 192. The independence of the vast majority of these “new” countries were supported in their right of independence by the United States Federal Government. Either independence is a fundamental, moral right or it is not.


Excellent point. We are living in a banana republic and the government schools have done a fine job dumbing down the populace so people are not aware of how we have strayed from the Founder's vision of Independent States with a weak federal government with limited powers.
Principles matter. Words matter.