Author Topic: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar  (Read 3468 times)

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Offline ExFreeper

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2016, 08:48:45 AM »



Quote
Quoting chrisp390:

The pilot then trying to regain control swung the plane left and right before either passing out or being killed by the fire and the plane plunged towards the ocean.

The 90-degree turn is standard procedure to get out of an airlane when an emergency occurs. Pilots are trained to make that maneuver during emergency descent in cases of depressurization, smoke in the cockpit, or some similar situation when the craft remains under control but an onboard emergency occurs, to take the craft from an air traffic lane. Normally, once having descended, the aircraft would then take a 90-degree turn the opposite direction, to return to a heading similar to its original route. Why the 360-degree turn to the right was made is not immediately obvious; it is sometimes initiated to increase drag, and thus cause more rapid descent - but that is pure speculation at this time.

The fact that the turns were precisely 90 degrees left and then and 360-degree right turns indicates the airplane was under control during those time; damaged control surfaces would not initiate such precise turns. For this period of time, at least, it appears these were deliberate actions being taken.

None of this explains what caused the incident, but I hope it does help clarify why the maneuvers indicate the plane was under control, at least for the immediate time following its departure from its planned path. The big question now becomes: what precipitated this?


Quote
Quoting alfa164:
Russian TV was airing a report that this specific flight number had been targeted for "murder" a few days before the incident herein... a report that grossly misread the situation.

Sure, but at least they didn't solely spewed out that rubbish without providing airtime for those saying it's not terrorism. RT called me many times that day but I could only get 1 slot in... they wanted to do like at least 4 slots throughout... the times just weren't right for me...

Quoting Mir:
They are separated by minute, however. Lav smoke at :26, avionics smoke at :27.

I agree that this is a difficult one to comprehend because of what you said afterwards:

Quoting Mir:
As I said, if the fire was in the cockpit, that's reasonable. But if the fire was in the avionics bay, then it should not trigger the lav smoke detector because of the ventilation pattern of the air.

Anyone got a diagram of the circulation flows?


Quote
Quoting zeke:
The ECAM AVIONICS SMOKE means smoke has been detected in the extraction duct of the avionics ventilation system. The Avionics ventilation system is not just the avionics bay, it is also for cooling all of the electrical components on the flight deck including the instrument panel (i.e. the display units and the mode control panel), the overhead panels, and the circuit breakers. The air used to cool the cockpit instruments and circuit breaker panels comes from the cockpit. The air used for the avionics bay comes from the air conditioning duct.

Yeah, found it in the FCOM on AirCond/Press... But failed to find what supplies the air condition ducts, is it bleed air or a combo of bleed air and recirculated cabin air?

Quoting zeke:
Be careful jumping to conclusion that AVIONICS SMOKE means smoke generated in the avionics bay, it can also mean smoke inside the cockpit being drawn in during the normal ventilation process into the extract duct generating the ECAM.

Yes, what's interesting is that the avionics bay air doesn't get circulated back, it gets extracted to the cargo compartment or overboard (or the skin heat exchanger and gets recirculated in the extraction system)... Now, where does the cargo air get sent to? Overboard or some of it get recirculated again?

The reason why I ask this and the air cond ducts, is that in abnormal and smoke modes, aircond ducts supply the extraction system...

Quoting litz:
What if the Lav smoke was actually :26:58 and the avionics was :27:01

Let's not forget that the avionics smoke warning require the smoke detector detect smoke for 5 continuous seconds before activating the warning.


Quote
Quoting Mir:
Air from the air conditioning duct is only used in the event of a failure of one of the fans that draw air through the loop.

Yes, but what supplies the air conditioning duct and also what is the air circulation of the cargo compartment?

Quoting abnormal:
the use of the word perceptible is deliberate as the avionics smoke detectors are take a long time to go off. It's not unreasonable to expect that smoke could have entered the fwd lav before the detectors in the AVIONICS bay were even triggered.

The word "perceptible" has been carefully chosen : here it means, crudely : " if someone smells a *burning* odour", as our sense of smell is capable of discriminating very few molecules with an *odour stamp*... it is a lot more sensitive than a smoke detector.

Quoting YVRLTN:
Do the side windows have heat, or is it just the main windshield?

All cockpit windows are heated ; the windshields have two settings : Normal / Low . The side windows - fixed or sliding - only have one

Quoting flyingturtle:
Last ADS-B data was at 00:29:33.558 with 6 data receptions by ADS-B groundstations over the last 3 seconds of detection. It was tracking at 136 degrees.

The aircraft was consistently tracking at 139 degrees until 00:29:09.000, after which the aircraft had a small track change to 136... which was held from 00:29:18:776 until the end.

Autopilot switched off or changed from managed mode to heading select mode?

Quoting mandala499:
combo of bleed air and recirculated cabin air?

Depends on the cabin fans, if they are in auto its mixed, if it is set to off non recirculated.

Quoting mandala499:
Overboard or some of it get recirculated again?

Overboard normally, you dont want gas from a cargo being circulated into the cabin.



« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 12:30:46 PM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2016, 01:16:48 PM »
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 10:44:44 AM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2016, 03:10:36 PM »

EgyptAir plane 'did not swerve' before crash


Al Jazeera / Reuters

Egypt air navigation official says plane did not swerve or lose altitude before it disappeared, as claimed by Greece.

The head of Egypt's state-run provider of air navigation services says that EgyptAir flight 804 did not swerve or lose altitude before it disappeared off radar, challenging an earlier account by Greece's defence minister.

Ehab Azmy, head of the National Air Navigation Services Company, told The Associated Press news agency on Monday that in the minutes before the plane disappeared it was flying at its normal altitude of 37,000 feet, according to the radar reading.

He said: "That fact degrades what the Greeks are saying about aircraft suddenly losing altitude before it vanished from radar."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/egyptair-plane-swerve-crash-160523143800474.html




Quote
Quoting Rivet42:
Q:  However, if the Greek military report is still valid, the aircraft continued for 7 minutes at FL370 after ATC lost contact before it began the left turn which doesn't make much sense either unless an avionics fire took out the transponder...

A: Closest Greek radar site would be on Karpathos Island which is around 192 nm miles away. We need to understand that primary radar at that sort of distance is not all that accurate. Second closest radar site would have been the Ziros Area Control Center which is more like 214 nm away, then you have Fodele at 274 nm, and lastly Sklavopoula at 335 nm.

If they are saying radar contact was lost at 15,000 ft, assuming the base antenna is located at 1000m, you would have a maximum radar range of just under 220 nm.


zeke





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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2016, 08:04:10 AM »
Quote
EgyptAir 804 remains point to bomb: official
skynews.com.au, May 24, 2016

A senior Egyptian forensics official says human remains retrieved from the crash site of EgyptAir flight 804 suggest there was an explosion on board that may have brought down the aircraft.

The official is part of the Egyptian investigative team and has personally examined the remains at a Cairo morgue.

He spoke on condition of anonymity because he isn't authorised to release the information.

He says all 80 pieces brought to Cairo so far are small and that 'there isn't even a whole body part, like an arm or a head'.

Read more at skynews.com.au

 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 08:04:38 AM by Right_in_Virginia »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2016, 08:35:01 AM »
Quote
Forensics chief retracts EgyptAir blast claims

Egypt's head of forensics denied reports that an initial examination of human remains belonging to victims aboard the EgyptAir jet that crashed in the Mediterranean pointed towards an explosion, state news agency MENA said on Tuesday.

"Everything published about this matter is completely false, and mere assumptions that did not come from the Forensics Authority," MENA quoted Hesham Abdelhamid as saying in a statement.


http://worldaffairsjournal.org/content/pentagon-confirms-us-talks-yemen%E2%80%99s-houthis



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVA3Xbfx8CI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVA3Xbfx8CI</a>


Quoting DocLightning
Q: I wonder why their #1 engine is feathered and shut down in the link's video
A:  The P-3 can shut down a couple of engines to increase loiter time.  apfpilot


UPDATE 6
May 23, 2016 at 14:30 UTC

Yesterday, (May 22), U.S. Navy P-3s continued to support the search effort with two missions (6th and 7th) from NAS Sigonella. The first flight of the day (6th overall) discovered another debris field that was a radius of three nautical miles in size. Once reported to the Egyptian on scene commander, the aircraft was sent elsewhere to search for additional debris fields. The Egyptians deployed small vessels to retrieve debris in the field they discovered. From post mission reporting and the plotting of debris fields, two confirmed debris fields have been located by U.S. Navy aircraft supporting the effort.

http://www.c6f.navy.mil/news/us-navy-p-3-orion-assists-search-egyptair-flight-ms804




« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 02:25:54 PM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2016, 03:52:02 PM »
"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2016, 04:01:24 PM »
Long out of a job, "Baghdad Bob" may return to handle media relations, for Egypt.

Got Taqqiya ?? This is yet another nail in the coffin, of their tourism business.

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2016, 05:40:29 PM »
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:28:52 AM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2016, 02:48:00 PM »
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 02:48:40 PM by rangerrebew »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2016, 10:09:56 AM »
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 08:14:27 AM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2016, 08:35:11 AM »
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 12:20:27 PM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2016, 09:10:30 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEdqcrV1TdY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEdqcrV1TdY</a>


Investigation Progress Report (4) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee

CAIRO - 28 May 2016

The investigation committee received satellite reports of the electronic emergency signal that came out of the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT); which is equipment that sends automatic signals to satellite in the event of a crash or fall into water. Concerned search units were then informed of the updates recorded by the satellite to intensify searching in that area.

Efforts to search for the data recorders of the A320 continues; including the use of the most advanced search equipment of Alseamar company that was brought aboard the French vessel. The Ministry of Civil aviation has also made agreement with DOS (DEEP OCEAN SEARCH) company for other equipment with high capacity to receive signals and conduct sonar scan, in order to diversify research methods and to carry them out in the shortest time possible.

On the other hand, the investigation committee has started studying the information received from the Greek air traffic control about the accident; more information of the records of the radar that had followed the path of the plane before the accident, is expected to be also received.

http://www.civilaviation.gov.eg/News/news%20pages%20ar/messs_28_5_16.html



Egypt brings in specialized deep search ship for Egyptair hunt

Chicago Tribune - By Gregory Viscusi,Alan Levin and Andrea Rothman, May 28, 2016

Egyptian authorities hired a deep ocean survey and recovery company to join the hunt for wreckage of the EgyptAir jet that went down over the eastern Mediterranean last week as new satellite evidence emerged to help narrow down the likely crash site.

Egypt's civil aviation ministry signed the agreement on Friday with Deep Ocean Search Ltd., according to a statement from France's air accidents bureau, BEA, which is part of the investigation. A DOS's vessel will join the Laplace, a French Navy ship set to arrive in the area over the weekend and deploying specialist technology to pick up telltale "pings" from the Airbus Group SE A320's black-box flight recorders...

DOS is based in Mauritius, staffed by veterans of the French Navy and has recovered precious metals from a ship sunk in World War II in the mid-Atlantic at a depth of 5,150 meters (about 17,000 feet), the company said on its website. The area where the EgyptAir flight went down is thought to be more than 3,000 meters deep.

The Laplace, named after celebrated French mathematician and astronomer Pierre-Simon Laplace, will carry three Detector 6000 underwater listening systems supplied by the Alseamar unit of Paris-based search specialist Alcen, a veteran of air-crash searches that also works with defense and oil-industry clients. Two officials from the BEA are traveling on the Laplace.

The probes, shaped like torpedoes and dragged beneath the ship, have an "extremely long detection range," according to Alseamar, being able to detect pings from black boxes 5 kilometers away. Egypt said Thursday the deployment of more specialist gear would "help speed up" the search effort.

Among previous projects, Alseamar worked on the recovery of the black boxes from a Flash Airlines Boeing Co. 737 that crashed into the Red Sea shortly after takeoff from Sharm el-Sheikh in 2004, killing all 148 passengers and crew...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-egyptair-025bb63e-24f1-11e6-b944-52f7b1793dae-20160528-story.html


Quote
Concerning MS 804, beside using optical detectors (see Airbus statement), I would add that the smoke warning(s) were triggered several hours after take off. At this point, such warnings would be very unlikely resulting from prior ground contamination of smoke detectors, which is what happen in most cases.

Also, ACARS of MS 804 are reporting two warnings at 0:26 and 0:27 (Lavatory and Avionics), which make it even less likely that they were related to nearly simultaneous faults of two detectors reporting spurious alarms. They are related to different compartiments and systems.

Moreover, both warnings were possibly triggered by cockpit adjacent areas (Lavatory A door is only a few centimenters away from the cockpit door while the avionics bay is right below the cockpit's floor) ; on top of it, the avionics vent system is using cockpit air to refresh both instrument panel and the whole bay, where the avionics smoke detector check the exhaust ducts for particles.

Finally, the two system faults reported at 0:26 and 0:28 are telling something related to the cockpit right windows heating sensors (sliding first, then fixed one) ; both window sensors faulted... but not the right windshield which is also heated by the same WHC-2. Hence, one could think that it wasn't related to the state of WHC-2 in the bay which was still working on the right windshield and triggered no fault on its own. In case of such a single fault reported, one would suspect the sensor first, the computer next and the wiring last. Now, if the computer is not at fault, we are still left with two faults with different wirings, sensors, and circuit breakers...

So far, and without any further evidence, I would rather suspect that those smoke warnings reported were actually real ones ; also, it seems to be more likely due to an external system cause, probably in cockpit, like a sudden surge of temp close to the right sliding windows ; the original event would have to last for at least 1-3 minutes (0:26 to 0:28) in order to trigger the second sensor fault on the fixed right window.

Considering that the investigation is in possession of the full ACARS content, they would have more details on each time stamping; they would also be able to tell if any probable delay happened during the string of ACARS between 0:26 and 0:29. But based on what we have, it's still possible to make some sense out of the first faults reported.

Of course, it's not the only scenario as one could also suspect a more complicated sequence, like a wiring combustion or electrical issue contaminating one and second right window heating system. It's only less likely because it would alert the crew of something wrong (like smell) in the cockpit, and probably well before this point.

Now, looking at any previous report of incident at cruise involving cockpit windows overheating in A320 might be more interesting than spurious smoke warning events, in order to understand if this could make more sense than an external surge of temp in cockpit.

takata @ PPRuNe


UPDATE (May 31, 2016):  PMS Burullus is back on location per AIS Vessel tracking....



« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 04:51:00 PM by ExFreeper »
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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2016, 07:28:13 AM »
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 11:29:19 AM by ExFreeper »
"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2016, 08:27:56 PM »

Quote
This after a French naval supply vessel picked up signal from one of two recorders on June 1.

http://www.turnto23.com/news/second-specialist-vessel-to-join-egyptair-flight-804-search



Deep-sea robot to join search for Egyptair wreck

Paris - A research vessel with an underwater robot is set to begin searching the Mediterranean "as from Friday" for the wreck of the EgyptAir plane that crashed last month, according to the French aviation safety agency BEA.

Egypt has hired the "John Lethbridge", which is owned by the private Deep Ocean Search company, to comb the ocean floor for the Airbus A320 that went down with 66 people aboard en route from Paris to Cairo on May 19.

The ship is en route and "should arrive in the area as from Friday," BEA director Remi Jouty told reporters.

A French navy vessel using deep-water listening devices picked up signals from one of the black boxes over a week ago, but so far it has failed to locate either it or the second recorder.


"For the moment we are hopeful of managing to locate these recorders while they continue to emit [pings]," Jouty said, acknowledging "we have to be quick".

The the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder have enough battery power to emit signals for four to five weeks.

The area where the plane went down is believed to be about 3 000m deep.


The "John Lethbridge" has a side scan sonar that provides digital images of the seabed, as well as a robot that is capable of diving to 3 000 metres.

Some wreckage was retrieved from the Mediterranean last month, along with belongings of passengers on board flight MS804, but no bodies have been found so far.

The plane crashed between the Greek island of Crete and the Egyptian coast after disappearing suddenly from radar screens.

Investigators have said it is too soon to determine what caused the disaster.

While speculation initially centred on a terror attack, a technical fault has also not been ruled out, with automated messages sent by the plane shortly before its demise indicating smoke in the cabin and a fault in the flight control unit.

The crash took place seven months after the bombing of a Russian airliner over Egypt's restive Sinai Peninsula in October that killed all 224 people on board.

The Islamic State group claimed responsibility for that attack. There has been no such claim over the EgyptAir crash.

http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/deep-sea-robot-to-join-search-for-egyptair-wreck-20160609

« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 08:31:24 PM by ExFreeper »
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Offline Chieftain

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2016, 08:36:24 PM »
10,000 feet deep in the area along with a really funky bottom profile in a geologically active area of the planet.  It will take time to find, but they'll get those recorders.

Hell of a job.


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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2016, 07:58:11 AM »
"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2016, 11:46:30 PM »
Word is they have recovered the Cockpit Voice Recorder, so there should be some definitive information soon.  I would imagine that the FDR discovery is probably imminent...


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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2016, 07:51:33 AM »
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:27:35 AM by ExFreeper »
"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman

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Re: EgyptAir Flight Disappears From Radar
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2016, 08:53:10 AM »


Investigation Progress Report (12) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee

Cairo, 19th of June 2016

On Saturday the 18th of June; the investigation committee started the process of inspecting parts of both CVR and FDR, the approved representative of France and his consulting experts witnessed this process. Whereas approved Representative and consultants from the US as the engine manufacturer also joined the investigation committee.

Memory units of both recorders were removed at the labs of the Central Department for Aircraft Investigation at the Ministry of Civil Aviation as a preparation to start the drying stage which was conducted at the Technical Research Center of the Armed Forces using modern high-Tech drying ovens. The drying stage took 8 consecutive hours and it was made in attendance of members of the investigation committee, and the adviser to the approved representative of France, who has a wide expertise in dealing with the plane recorders. Electrical tests of memory units of the recorders are in progress which will be followed by the data unloading phase.

It is worth mentioning that John Lethbrige, the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government to join the search for the plane wreckage, is proceeding its tasks of drawing a map of the wreckage distribution at the bottom of the Mediterranean.

Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee






Investigation Progress Report (13) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee

Cairo, 22nd of June 2016

The investigation committee is conducting thorough inspection and tests on the electronic boards of both the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) of the doomed A320 in order to start the uploading process of the data. Approved representatives and consultants from France and the United States of America, are also witnessing these processes.

Inspection and removal of salt accumulations for more than 200 electrical circuits are undergoing to determine the circuit that does not function properly in order to reach accurate reading of the memory units of the recorders.

It is worth mentioning that John Lethbrige, the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government to join the search for the plane wreckage, is proceeding its tasks of drawing a map of the wreckage distribution at the bottom of the Mediterranean; which lead up to retrieving them in a later stage.

http://www.civilaviation.gov.eg/News/news%20pages%20ar/messs_22_6_16.html




« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 08:14:44 AM by ExFreeper »
"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman


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