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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2016, 03:53:39 PM »
Since the show is 'based' on the books, and the Men Without Banners are IN Riverrun - I would not be surprised to see Lady Stoneheart there and/or have Brienne's fate meted out in similar manner by someone else assuming the punishment Lady Stoneheart delivers.  Especially given the joyful glee that takes place in this series with so many main characters  meeting bad ends.

Right -- it may certainly happen that way.  But LS was pissed at Brienne for what happened to her daughters, and viewed Brienne as something of an oathbreaker/traitor for that.  But now, Brienne actually has saved Sansa.  So why would anyone come after her?  Heck, she's on orders from Sansa -- that should make her pretty popular down there.  She's just in a much, much different place than she was when she was captured by the BwB in the books.

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I do not think he is the same man that existed when he last saw Brienne.  He is hell-bent now on revenge himself and is closer to his sister's motivations than his own past careless arrogance.  Maybe Jaime is the one to use Oathkeeper and exact punishment on Brienne?  That too would not surprise me.

For what would Jaime be punishing Brienne?  He gave her Oathkeeper to find and protect Sansa Stark -- that's exactly what she did with it, which didn't happen in the books.  At least, not yet.  The only thing I could think of here is that if LS exists, and if Brienne is captured, then LS may order her to find Arya.  But I can't see the hostility towards Brienne given what she's managed to do with Sansa, and the fact that she is already acting under Sansa's orders in coming to Riverrun.  That would be ordering Brienne to disobey Sansa.

I wonder, though, what would happen if the BwB captured Jaime.  Would LS order him killed?  Would she say that his duty lies North to protect Sansa, or that he should find Arya?  That would take him out of the seeming dead end of a pointless battle over Riverrun.

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Well, given what that witch told Cersei when she was a teen, all three of her kids would be crowned with gold, and gold would be their shrouds.  AND, it was Cersei's actions themselves - that ultimately caused the death of her first two, and it would fit the pattern that the Mountain zombie, when she unleashes it - ends up ending Tommen as well. In fact if you look back on the show - the flash point to the entire unravelling of what existed when the show began and the thing that sets off all the events we have seen (excepting Daenerys) is Cersie and Jaime.  The thing he does for "love" - sets off the chain reaction of everything that followed.  So I think those two will ultimately be responsible for their own demise.

Yeah, I agree.  I think a Mountain rampage would fit everything pretty well.  Only quibble is that I expect Sandor to actually win that fight....

Offline INVAR

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2016, 05:29:08 PM »
Right -- it may certainly happen that way.  But LS was pissed at Brienne for what happened to her daughters, and viewed Brienne as something of an oathbreaker/traitor for that.  But now, Brienne actually has saved Sansa.  So why would anyone come after her?  Heck, she's on orders from Sansa -- that should make her pretty popular down there.  She's just in a much, much different place than she was when she was captured by the BwB in the books.

Let's just say that I expect DB and Benni to keep the "death scene" as it is in the books - even if they engineer someone else to do it, and the single word shouted at that event while leaving us in the dark about her fate for a few episodes.  What about Ramsay at Winterfell?  Certainly he could capture her passing on through and set up that sequence without anyone raising an eyebrow.

For what would Jaime be punishing Brienne? 

Vengeance for Joffrey.  He still has no idea who was responsible for that, and she was implicated and disappeared when it happened. He's in revenge mode given his words to Cersei this episode.  Who knows how the loss of his daughter and now the stealing of Tommen from him is going to affect his judgment going forward?

Just speculation at this point on everything.  It's all we have until this series concludes.

And it's fun to see how close or how far away from the mark we are.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2016, 05:34:23 PM »
No kidding.  I think I was arguing about this stuff back on a message board in '97....

Online kevindavis

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2016, 05:45:33 PM »
And it's fun to see how close or how far away from the mark we are.


I think we are 2 or 3 season towards the end.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2016, 06:26:06 PM »

I think we are 2 or 3 season towards the end.

I had read that they plan on only 2 more seasons which will be stretched out over 3.

10 episodes next year, then 5 will be aired in 2018 and 5 to conclude the series in 2019.

I imagine the last 6 hours will be like a giant Hollywood blockbuster's final climactic act where everything comes down to the "war to come".
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2016, 10:42:13 PM »
Ian McShane AND The Hound!!

 :beer:

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2016, 12:19:43 PM »
It was a bit slower of an episode, but still really good.  The Hound was an inevitability, I think.

But the King's Landing stuff actually got interesting.  Margaery confirmed suspicions that she is playing the High Septon -- and playing him very well, I think.  Getting the QOT out of town also was a good move, and I really enjoyed seeing QOT putting whiny, woe is me Cersei in her place.

Though it is starting to look that way, I hope Jon and Sansa don't neglect to go after the Manderlys.  Wyman Manderly was a great character, and that whole "the North Remembers" theme was pretty powerful.  Although right now, it doesn't look like the North remembers very much at all.  The always-loyal Glovers turned tail, and the Umbers (apparently) have betrayed the Starks as well.

The Arya scenes are going to be a disappointment either way.  The way the waif dug that knife into Arya repeatedly is just something she shouldn't be able to survive, so if she does, it is really going to strain credulity.  And if she does die, than that entire storyline in Braavos was a complete waste.

Riverrun could be interesting.  It looks like Brienne will tell the Blackfish that she rescued Sansa after Jaime gave her his sword, so there's at least an argument that he fulfilled part of the oath.  I suppose what might happen is that the Blackfish may be permitted by Jaime to take whatever loyalists exist, and head North to join Sansa.  Jaime might permit that, and it would be an interesting twist. Also, it seems that Jaime would have to promise Brienne something if she helps him, and given that her mission is to get help for Sansa.

Also like Theon and Asha trying to beat Euron to Danaerys.  I don't think Danaerys is going to be fond of the ironborn either way, but an alliance with Asha/Theon seems more credible than one with Euron.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2016, 01:45:03 PM »

The Arya scenes are going to be a disappointment either way.  The way the waif dug that knife into Arya repeatedly is just something she shouldn't be able to survive, so if she does, it is really going to strain credulity.  And if she does die, than that entire storyline in Braavos was a complete waste.

Well Jaqen drank poison and died in front of Arya and ended up right in front of her shortly thereafter.  So there's something the Faceless men can do to cheat death it seems.  Perhaps that is something that comes into play for Arya somehow.  Maybe even Jaqen rescues her.  It was her compassion and sense of justice that appealed to Jaqen in the first place when he was stuck in that wagon cell.  Perhaps the fact that Arya was questioning the morality of killing people because a price was paid by someone causes some reflection.  Or, maybe this was just yet another test by Jaqen.

Up until the last assignment Jaqen gave Arya - the impression I got from Jaqen was that he seemed guided by the notion that there was a difference between justice and revenge. Something I assumed he was teaching Arya.  Dispensing death as a gift outside of the natural cause was a service the Faceless men provide.  That they will kill to whomever pays them a price is a revelation that changed my perception of what they were.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline flowers

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2016, 02:12:57 PM »
I love GOT. Haven't been able to watch this year though...will read this area for sure....  @flowers


Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2016, 04:21:12 PM »
Well Jaqen drank poison and died in front of Arya and ended up right in front of her shortly thereafter.  So there's something the Faceless men can do to cheat death it seems.  Perhaps that is something that comes into play for Arya somehow.  Maybe even Jaqen rescues her.  It was her compassion and sense of justice that appealed to Jaqen in the first place when he was stuck in that wagon cell.  Perhaps the fact that Arya was questioning the morality of killing people because a price was paid by someone causes some reflection.  Or, maybe this was just yet another test by Jaqen.

I think it was a test, and that she "failed".  But I don't think the price for such failure is necessarily death.  Perhaps Jaqen couldn't deny the waif's right to kill Arya, but if Arya survives, he will help her and then send her on her way.

Still wondering if perhaps his affection for her is based on more than just that one chance encounter where she helped him escaped.  So maybe...is it still possible that he's Syrio Forel, her old fencing instructor, who was actually on a mission to kill someone in KL before all hell broke loose?  If so, that whole understanding he seemed to have about who she was when she was trying to become a Faceless Man would have a deeper background.  Maybe that's the source of his apparent affection for her?

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Up until the last assignment Jaqen gave Arya - the impression I got from Jaqen was that he seemed guided by the notion that there was a difference between justice and revenge. Something I assumed he was teaching Arya.  Dispensing death as a gift outside of the natural cause was a service the Faceless men provide.  That they will kill to whomever pays them a price is a revelation that changed my perception of what they were.

I think the FM do see a difference between justice and revenge.  I just don't think that is determinative as to whether or not they will accept a contract.  We learned pretty early in the books that they will kill anyone if paid enough.  The Many Faced god will judge the person who took out the contract for their motives.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2016, 04:21:43 PM »
I love GOT. Haven't been able to watch this year though...will read this area for sure....  @flowers

Do you have a pretty good sense of what is going on?  I'll be happy to fill you in if you don't.

Offline flowers

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2016, 12:28:58 PM »
Do you have a pretty good sense of what is going on?  I'll be happy to fill you in if you don't.
Yes I have watched every season up till this one. I watched the first episode on HBO earlier this year.  I have read bits and pieces of what is going on this season. I think I found a site that tells all that has happened in each episode for this season, just haven't had the time to read them yet. Would love info for questions I have. Thanks  @Maj. Bill Martin
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 12:33:12 PM by flowers »


Offline chae

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2016, 12:32:32 PM »
I found a video, a bunch of scenes taken out of context that "proves" Ramsey Bolton is the kindest man in Westeros.

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2016, 12:03:45 AM »
I found a video, a bunch of scenes taken out of context that "proves" Ramsey Bolton is the kindest man in Westeros.

Ramsey Bolton is the most despised sadist on the planet at the moment...let's hope he doesn't endorse Trump....

A couple of points....

*  Just who is this Ice King??  Did the Kingslayer really slay the Mad King??  Did they burn Aerys Targaryen after he was killed??

** Speaking of the icy dead....do you suppose Caitlyn Stark is out there someplace still??  After the Red Wedding they tossed her dead body into the river and it was never seen again...

*** Who ever thought that the Hound could be a hero??

**** Do you think The Mountain That Rides will survive another season??

***** Interesting that episode six showed the Mad King ordering "burn them all!" with the liquid dragon fire.  The first season underplayed the importance of dragon fire and just where it all came from.  Supposedly by the time of the Mad King, all the dragons had died out, but those three eggs came from someplace and Aerys had gallons of the stuff.  If you look at the scene of the dragon roaring you can see the two tubes, one on each side of the mouth, that the dragon excretes the liquid dragon fire from....

Its too bad this season is only ten episodes as we are well beyond the end of the last book and the next one still has no date.  We'll see where this all goes in the next three episodes...its bound to be epic no matter what!

 :beer:
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 12:05:26 AM by Chieftain »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2016, 11:21:02 AM »
*  Just who is this Ice King??

You could get arguments forever on that.  It may literally be the 13th Commander of the Night's Watch, who would be thousands of years old.  But it also may be someone of whom we've never heard.

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Did the Kingslayer really slay the Mad King??

Yes, absolutely.

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Did they burn Aerys Targaryen after he was killed??

I don't believe so.

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** Speaking of the icy dead....do you suppose Caitlyn Stark is out there someplace still??  After the Red Wedding they tossed her dead body into the river and it was never seen again...

In the books, she is still out there as a revived, intelligent undead, last seen as sort of the spiritual head of the Brotherhood without Banners.  That whole storyline was supposedly scotched from the show, but there's nothing saying they couldn't revive it given that Sandor seems to be headed that way.  And since he's the last one in Westeros who had any contact with Arya, I suppose it might be possible that UnCatelyn could command him to go find/rescue her.

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*** Who ever thought that the Hound could be a hero??

Well, way back in I think 1999, I posted a thread on an old ASOIAF message board about that very issue.  It came about because there were some folks who just had their hearts set in Sansa eventually hooking up with the Hound, and I thought the Hound was an utter scumbag.  But, I started a thread about what it would take for him to find redemption.  And since then, I know there has been a general consensus in the fan community that Sandor eventually would find some form of redemption.  Until maybe 3-4 years ago, you could still find shreds of that old board around, though it went inactive in about 2000 or so when it shifted over to another board, and then kept changing until it morphed into the Westeros board.

By the way, never ever go to that Westeros board and try to discuss politics.  It makes DU look like Reagan.

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**** Do you think The Mountain That Rides will survive another season??

Nope, he's a damn goner by the end of this season, but I think he's going to take a lot of people with him.

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***** Interesting that episode six showed the Mad King ordering "burn them all!" with the liquid dragon fire.  The first season underplayed the importance of dragon fire and just where it all came from.  Supposedly by the time of the Mad King, all the dragons had died out, but those three eggs came from someplace and Aerys had gallons of the stuff.  If you look at the scene of the dragon roaring you can see the two tubes, one on each side of the mouth, that the dragon excretes the liquid dragon fire from....

Well, if I understand you right, there are actually two different things going on in your post.  The first is that the fire to which Aerys was referring is the same stuff Tyrion used in the battle of the Blackwater against Stannis' fleet, and it is actually a chemical called "wildfire" produced by pyromancer chemists at King's Landing.  Aerys probably calls it "dragonfire" just out of vanity, but it wasn't really from dragons.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 11:23:03 AM by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2016, 08:32:46 PM »
Thanks Maj. Bill for clearing my memory on Dragon fire...been a while since I broke out the books and the early story line(s) are fading fast...

Still an incredible story line and even if it ends in a couple more seasons, the final battles will make LOTRs look like Romper Room...

Cheers!

 :beer:

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2016, 10:50:09 AM »
Thanks Maj. Bill for clearing my memory on Dragon fire...been a while since I broke out the books and the early story line(s) are fading fast...

Still an incredible story line and even if it ends in a couple more seasons, the final battles will make LOTRs look like Romper Room...

Cheers!

 :beer:

Yeah, it's a great story.  I really hope old George finishes up the books someday, but I have my doubts.

Offline TheMom

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2016, 10:48:18 AM »
The Arya scenes are going to be a disappointment either way.  The way the waif dug that knife into Arya repeatedly is just something she shouldn't be able to survive, so if she does, it is really going to strain credulity.  And if she does die, than that entire storyline in Braavos was a complete waste.

My thoughts on this is it wasn't Arya, but Jaqen testing the waif.  Arya knew her life was in danger and would not have been so bold and unaware of her surroundings, plus she didn't have Needle with her.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2016, 12:17:24 AM »
My thoughts on this is it wasn't Arya, but Jaqen testing the waif.  Arya knew her life was in danger and would not have been so bold and unaware of her surroundings, plus she didn't have Needle with her.

You may be right about that.  And the way that "Arya" was stumbling around after being stabbed almost made it look like she wanted to be seen by as many people as possible.  That's...intriguing.

Offline TheMom

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2016, 10:01:08 PM »
My thoughts on this is it wasn't Arya, but Jaqen testing the waif.  Arya knew her life was in danger and would not have been so bold and unaware of her surroundings, plus she didn't have Needle with her.

They just blew my theory right out of the water.
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Offline Chieftain

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2016, 10:49:39 PM »
"Spit it out! Ya wee $hit!!...Spit it out!!!"

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2016, 08:39:38 AM »
They just blew my theory right out of the water.

Yeah, they went with the disappointing "repeated stabs/knife twists to the gut overcome in a couple of days" route.

Arya's entire storyline in Essos now looks to have been a complete waste, as was the whole Blackfish revival.  The only possible point to the latter is if Brienne and Pod meet up with Sandor and the Brotherhood heading North, because they will have needed an excuse for Brienne to go south.

Big surprise with Tommen outlawing trial by combat.  Cersei would appeared to be completely screwed now except for Jaime's apparent desire to get back to KL and Cersei as quickly as possible. 

Holy Schniekes, just had a thought....

There's speculation out there that the secret Cersei was discussing with Qyburn has to do with the wildfire hidden under the city, and that perhaps Cersei will burn the city (or at least Baelor's Sept) down rather than submit to a trial.  So suppose Jaime comes back to "rescue" her, finds out what her plan in, and has to kill her to prevent her from doing what Aerys' tried to do?   That would be the "valonquar" prophecy coming true, because it would mean Cersei is strangled by her younger brother.   And right after giving that "I love my sister more than anything" speech to Edmure....
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 08:48:33 AM by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2016, 08:53:07 AM »
Yeah, they went with the disappointing "repeated stabs/knife twists to the gut overcome in a couple of days" route.

Arya's entire storyline in Essos now looks to have been a complete waste, as was the whole Blackfish revival.  The only possible point to the latter is if Brienne and Pod meet up with Sandor and the Brotherhood heading North, because they will have needed an excuse for Brienne to go south.

Big surprise with Tommen outlawing trial by combat.  Cersei would appeared to be completely screwed now except for Jaime's apparent desire to get back to KL and Cersei as quickly as possible. 

Holy Schniekes, just had a thought....

There's speculation out there that the secret Cersei was discussing with Qyburn has to do with the wildfire hidden under the city, and that perhaps Cersei will burn the city (or at least Baelor's Sept) down rather than submit to a trial.  So suppose Jaime comes back to "rescue" her, finds out what her plan in, and has to kill her to prevent her from doing what Aerys' tried to do?   That would be the "valonquar" prophecy coming true, because it would mean Cersei is strangled by her younger brother.   And right after giving that "I love my sister more than anything" speech to Edmure....

And that means it is Jamie who fights the Mountain to the death...

Gonna be good....

 :beer:

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2016, 08:59:39 AM »
And that means it is Jamie who fights the Mountain to the death...

Gonna be good....

 :beer:

Well, if that's the fight that happens, it's going to be Jaime's death, because there's no way that a one-handed Jaime with an ordinary sword has a hope in hell against the Mountain.  But to have the season end with him strangling his sister...that would be just amazing.

The thing that is so cool about the Jaime/wildfire/Cersei possibility is that whole conversation with Edmure. Edmure told him that every man must think he is decent at some level, and Jaime eventually comes up with loving Cersei.

 But the truth is that his greatest moment was killing Aerys because he was going to burn down the city, which he has chosen to keep a secret and therefore wouldn't reveal to Edmure. But I think that's the great, noble deed that lets him sleep at night.

 So for Cersei to do the exact same thing Aerys tried to do would render Jaime's entire life pointless -- destroying his greatest sacrifice and greatest good deed. It would be freaking perfect, and the ultimate mind-bleep for Jaime.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 11:53:29 AM by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Game of Thrones Thread
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2016, 10:57:20 AM »
Losing his hand was nowhere near the justice Jamie Lannister is due.  Perhaps the Hound might get the chance to take his revenge on his big brother...it was the Mountain that held Sandor's head in burning charcoal that left him looking like he does.  There was a quote in the books about the fate of the Clegane brothers....to the effect, "It is good that the Gods gave us seven hells, because one was surely not big enough for both of them...".

I'm still convinced we will eventually see an icy Caitlyn Stark, and and Ice King is the perfect yang to the ying of the last fire-mad Targaryan King....

 :beer:


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