Author Topic: Reality Check: Ted Cruz Says Middle East Was Better Off Before War On Terror  (Read 5253 times)

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Online Bigun

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Our generation was probably the last American Generation to understand what true personal liberty and freedom is (was).

And thank you sir for your distinguished service as well.  No, it was not in vain.

Quite true and I NEVER once thought what we did in Vietnam was in vain! In fact I KNOW better!

I have a book suggestion for you if you should be interested.

Find a copy of Mark Morar's Triumph Forsaken it is EXCELLENT and it's author has paid a lot for writing it!

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 02:53:02 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GAJohnnie

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Realy easy way to expose the simplistic nonsnse here.

What should we have done after 09-11 Senator Cruz?

Sorry fact of the matter is Cruz would of done exactly the same thing Bush did. Al Gore would of done the same thing. Hillary Clinton would of done the same thing.



Why Iraq

One of the really infuriating things in modern politics is the level of disinformation, misinformation, demagoguery and out right lying going on about the mission in Iraq. Democrats have spent the last 3+ years lying about Iraq out of a political calculation. The assumption is that the natural isolationist mindset of the average American voter, linked to the inherent Anti Americanism (what is misnamed the "Anti War movement") of the more feverish Democrat activists (especially those running the US's National "News" media) would restore them to national political dominance. The truth is the Democrat Party Leadership has simply lacked the courage to speak truth to whiners. The truth is that even if Al Gore won the 2000 election and 09-11 still happened we would be doing the EXACT same things in Iraq we are doing now.

Based on the political situation in the region left over from the 1991 Gulf War plus the domestic political consensus built up in BOTH parties since 1991 as well as fundamental military strategic laws, there was NO viable strategic choice for the US but to take out Iraq after finishing the initial operations in Afghanistan.

To start with Saddam's Iraq was our most immediate threat. We could NOT commit significant military forces to another battle with Saddam hovering undefeated on our flank nor could we leave significant forces watching Saddam. The political containment of Iraq was breaking down. That what Oil for Food was all about. Oil for Food was an attempt by Iraq to break out of it's diplomatic isolation and slip the shackles the UN Sanctions put on it's military. There there was the US Strategic position to consider.

The War on Islamic Fascism is different sort of war. in facing this Asymmetrical threat, we have a hidden foe, spread out across a geographically diverse area, with covert sources of supply. Since we cannot go everywhere they hide out, in fact often cannot even locate them until the engage us, we need to draw them out of hiding into a kill zone.

Iraq is that kill zone. That is the true brilliance of the Iraq strategy. We draw the terrorists out of their world wide hiding places onto a battlefield they have to fight on for political reasons (The "Holy" soil of the Arabian peninsula) where they have to pit their weakest ability (Conventional Military combat power) against our greatest strength (ability to call down unbelievable amounts of firepower) where they will primarily have to fight other forces (the Iraqi Security forces) in a battlefield that is mostly neutral in terms of guerrilla warfare. (Iraqi-mostly open terrain as opposed to guerrilla friendly areas like the mountains of Afghanistan or the jungles of SE Asia).

Did any of the critics of liberating Iraq ever look at a map? Iraq, for which we had the political, legal and moral justifications to attack, is the strategic high ground of the Middle East. A Geographic barrier that severs ground communication between Iran and Syria apart as well as providing another front of attack in either state or into Saudi Arabia if needed.

There were other reasons to do Iraq but here is the strategic military reason we are in Iraq. We have taken, an maintain the initiative from the Terrorists. They are playing OUR game on ground of OUR choosing.

Problem is Counter Insurgency is SLOW and painful. Often a case of 3 steps forward, two steps back. One has to wonder if the American people have either the emotional maturity, nor the intellect" to understand. It's so much easier to spew made for TV slogans like "No Blood for Oil" or "We support the Troops, bring them home" or dumbest of all "We are creating terrorists" then to actually THINK.

Westerners in general, and the US citizens in particular seem to have trouble grasping the fundamental fact of this foe. These Islamic Fascists have NO desire to co-exist with them. The extremists see all this PC posturing by the Hysteric Left as a sign that we are weak. Since they want us dead, weakness encourages them. There is simply no way to coexist with people who completely believe their "god" will reward them for killing us.

So we can covert to Islam, die or kill them. Iraq is about killing enough of them to make the rest of the Jihadists realize we are serious. They same way killing enough Germans, Italians and Japanese eliminated the ideologies of Nazism, Fascism and Bushido.

Americans need to understand how Bin Laden and his ilk view us. In the Arab world the USA is considered a big wimp. We have run away so many times. Lebanon, the Kurds, the Iraqis in 1991, the Iranians, Somalia, Clinton all thru the 1990s etc etc etc. The Jihadists think we will run again. In fact they are counting on it. That way they can run around screaming "We beat the American just like the Russians, come join us in Jihad" and recruit the next round of "holy warriors". Iraq is also a show place where we show the Muslim world that there are a lines they cannot cross. On 9-11-01 they crossed that line and we can, and will, destroy them for it -

If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

Winston Churchill

The failure in iraq came because right when we were on the verge of victory, our Political leader, Obama, pulled out our forces for domestic political reasons. Why we have ISIS and the current mess in the ME NOW is this refusal to follow thur and finish any job we start. Ran away from Afghanistan in 1989 and we got Bin Laden and 09-11. Ran away from Iraq in 1991 and had to go back in 2003. Ran away from Iraq in 2011 and now we have this ISIS mess.

HERE are the FACTS about Iraq that everyone from Clinton to Cruz want to ignore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant


The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, IPA /ˈaɪsəl/), alternatively translated the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS, /ˈaɪsɨs/),[29] is a Salafi jihadist militant group that adheres to an Islamic fundamentalist, Wahhabi doctrine of Sunni Islam.[30] Derived from its Arabic name ad-Dawlah al-Islāmiyah fī 'l-ʿIrāq wa-sh-Shām (الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام‎), the group is also known under the acronym Da'ish or Daesh (داعش‎, IPA: [ˈdaːʕiʃ]).[31][32]

The group has referred to itself as the Islamic State (الدولة الإسلامية‎ ad-Dawlah al-Islāmiyah) or IS[33] since it proclaimed a worldwide caliphate in June 2014[34][35] and named Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as its caliph.[36] As a caliphate, it claims religious, political and military authority over all Muslims worldwide.[37] The group's adoption of the name "Islamic State" and idea of a caliphate have been widely criticised, with the United Nations, various governments, and mainstream Muslim groups rejecting both. As of December 2015, the group has control over vast territories in Iraq and Syria with population estimates ranging between 2.8 million[38] and 8 million people,[39] where it enforces Sharia law. ISIL affiliates control small areas of Libya, Nigeria and Afghanistan and operate in other parts of the world, including North Africa and South Asia.[40][41][42]

ISIL gained prominence, when in early 2014 it drove Iraqi government forces out of key cities in its Western Iraq offensive,[43] followed by the capture of Mosul[44] and the Sinjar massacre,[45] almost causing a collapse of the Iraqi government and prompting a renewal of US military action in Iraq. In Syria, the group has conducted ground attacks on both government forces and rebel factions. The number of fighters the group commands in Iraq and Syria, was estimated by the CIA at 31,000, with foreign fighters accounting for around two thirds,[46] while ISIL leaders claim 40,000 fighters, with the majority being Iraqi and Syrian nationals.[26]

Adept at social media, ISIL became notorious for its videos of beheadings[47] of both soldiers and civilians, including journalists and aid workers, and for the destruction of cultural heritage sites.[48] The United Nations holds ISIL responsible for human rights abuses and war crimes, and Amnesty International has charged the group with ethnic cleansing on a "historic scale" in northern Iraq.[49] Around the world, Islamic religious leaders have overwhelmingly condemned ISIL's ideology and actions, arguing that the group has strayed from the path of true Islam and that its actions do not reflect the religion's real teachings or virtues.[50] The group has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United Nations, the European Union and its member states, the United States, India, Indonesia, Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran and other countries. Over 60 countries are directly or indirectly waging war against ISIL.

The group originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999, which pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda and participated in the Iraqi insurgency following the March 2003 invasion of Iraq by Western forces. Joining other Sunni insurgent groups to form the Mujahideen Shura Council, it proclaimed the formation of the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) in October 2006. In August 2011, following the outbreak of the Syrian Civil War, ISI, under the leadership of al-Baghdadi, delegated a mission into Syria, which under the name Jabhat an-Nuṣrah li-Ahli ash-Shām (or al-Nusra Front) established a large presence in Sunni-majority Al-Raqqah, Idlib, Deir ez-Zor, and Aleppo provinces. The merger of ISI with al-Nusra Front to form the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL), as announced in April 2013 by al-Baghdadi, was however rejected by al-Nusra leader al-Julani and al-Qaeda leader al-Zawahiri, who subsequently cut all ties with ISIL by February 2014.[3][51][52][53]

Contents

    1 Name
        1.1 Historical names
        1.2 Current name
    2 History
        2.1 Foundation, 1999–2006
        2.2 As Islamic State of Iraq, 2006–13
            2.2.1 Syrian Civil War
        2.3 As Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, 2013–14
        2.4 As Islamic State, 2014–present
    3 Ideology and beliefs
        3.1 Eschatology
    4 Goals and strategy
        4.1 Goals
        4.2 Strategy
    5 Worldwide caliphate aims
        5.1 Territorial claims and international presence
            5.1.1 Libyan Provinces
            5.1.2 Sinai Province
            5.1.3 Algerian Province
            5.1.4 Khorasan Province
            5.1.5 Yemen Provinces
            5.1.6 West African Province
            5.1.7 North Caucasus Province
            5.1.8 Southeast Asia
        5.2 Other areas of operation
        5.3 Leadership and governance
        5.4 Monetary system
        5.5 Non-combatants
    6 Military and resources
        6.1 Military
            6.1.1 Foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq
        6.2 Weapons
            6.2.1 Conventional weapons
            6.2.2 Non-conventional weapons
        6.3 Propaganda and social media
            6.3.1 Anonymous
        6.4 Finances
            6.4.1 Oil revenues
            6.4.2 Sale of antiques and artifacts
            6.4.3 Taxation and extortion
            6.4.4 Illegal drug trade
            6.4.5 Farming
            6.4.6 Donations by Saudi Arabia and Gulf states
    7 Supporters
        7.1 Iraq and Syria nationals
        7.2 Foreign nationals
        7.3 Groups with expressions of support
        7.4 Allegations of Turkish support
        7.5 Allegations of Qatari support
        7.6 Allegations of Saudi Arabian support
        7.7 Allegations of Syrian support
    8 Human rights abuse and war crime findings
        8.1 Religious and minority group persecution
        8.2 Treatment of civilians
        8.3 Child soldiers
        8.4 Sexual violence and slavery
        8.5 Attacks on members of the press
        8.6 Beheadings and mass executions
        8.7 Use of chemical weapons
        8.8 Destruction of cultural and religious heritage
    9 Classification
        9.1 Designation as a terrorist organisation
        9.2 Terrorist group, militia, or territorial authority
    10 Criticism and controversy
        10.1 Islamic criticism
        10.2 International criticism
        10.3 Criticism of the name "Islamic State" and "caliphate" declaration
        10.4 Conspiracy theories
    11 Countries and groups at war with ISIL
        11.1 Opposition within Asia and Africa
        11.2 The Global Coalition to Counter the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
        11.3 Other state opponents not part of the Counter-ISIL Coalition
        11.4 Other non-state opponents
        11.5 Al-Qaeda
    12 Timeline of events
    13 See also
    14 References
    15 Bibliography
    16 External links

Name
Historical names

The group has had various names since being founded in 1999 by Jordanian radical Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād (lit. "The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad").[28] When in October 2004, al-Zarqawi swore loyalty to Osama bin Laden, he renamed the group again to Tanẓīm Qāʻidat al-Jihād fī Bilād al-Rāfidayn (lit. "The Organisation of Jihad's Base in Mesopotamia"), commonly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq or AQI.[54][55] Although the group never called itself so, al-Qaeda in Iraq remained its informal name over the years.[56]

In January 2006, AQI merged with several other Sunni insurgent groups to form the Mujahideen Shura Council.[57] After al-Zarqawi was killed in June 2006, the Mujahideen Shura Council merged in October 2006 with several more insurgent factions to establish ad-Dawlah al-ʻIraq al-Islāmiyah, also known as the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI),[58] led by Abu Omar al-Baghdadi and Abu Ayyub al-Masri,[59] who were killed in a US–Iraqi operation in April 2010, being succeeded by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the group's new leader.
Current name
Main article: Name of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

In April 2013, having expanded into Syria, the group adopted the name ad-Dawlah al-Islāmiyah fī 'l-ʿIrāq wa-sh-Shām (الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام‎). With al-Shām being a region often compared with the Levant or Greater Syria, the group's name has been variously translated as "Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham",[60] "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria",[61] (both abbreviated ISIS), or "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (abbreviated: ISIL).[29]

While the use of one or the other acronym has been subject of a debate,[29][62] the distinction between the two and its relevancy has been considered as not so great.[29] Of greater relevancy is Daesh, an acronym of ISIL's untranslated Arabic name al-Dawlah al-Islamīyah fī al-ʻIrāq wa-al-Shām. Daesh, or Da'ish, has been widely used by ISIL's Arabic-speaking detractors,[clarification needed][63][64] while – and to a certain extent because – it is considered derogatory, resembling the Arabic words Daes (lit. "one who crushes – or tramples down – something underfoot"), and Dāhis (loosely translated: "one who sows discord").[31][65] Within areas under their control, ISIS therefore considers the use of the acronym Daesh punishable with flogging[66] or cutting out of the tongue.[67]

In May 2014, the United States Department of State announced its decision to use Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) as the group's primary name.[63] It stuck with this decision, when in late June 2014, the group renamed itself ad-Dawlah al-Islāmiyah (lit. Islamic State or IS), thereby declaring itself a worldwide caliphate.[35] The name "Islamic State" and the group's claim to be a caliphate have been widely rejected, with the UN, various governments, and mainstream Muslim groups refusing to use the new name.[68][69][70][71][72][73][74][75]

Later in 2014, some top US officials however shifted toward using Daesh, since this was the name that their Arab allies preferred to use.[31] In 2015, over 120 British parliamentarians asked the BBC to use the name Daesh, following the example of John Kerry and Laurent Fabius.[31][68]
History
Part of a series on the
 Islamic State of Iraq 
and the Levant history
Flag of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant2.svg

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad (1999–2004)

Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad
al-Rafidayn (2004–06)

Mujahideen Shura Council (2006)

Islamic State of Iraq (2006–13)

Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (2013–14)
Islamic State (June 2014–present)
By topic

    Beheadings Black Standard Ideology Destruction of cultural heritage Human rights List of battles Terrorist incidents Members Military Territorial claims Timeline Administrative divisions Claimed oil fields

    Category Category Portal Portal

    v t e

Main articles: History of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Islamic State of Iraq

The group was founded in 1999 by Jordanian radical Abu Musab al-Zarqawi under the name Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād (lit. "The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad").[28] In October 2004, al-Zarqawi pledged allegiance (Bay'ah) to al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and renamed the group to Tanẓīm Qāʻidat al-Jihād fī Bilād al-Rāfidayn (lit. "The Organisation of Jihad's Base in Mesopotamia"), commonly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq or AQI. Under al-Zarqawi, the group participated in the Iraqi insurgency following the March 2003 invasion of Iraq by Western forces.

In January 2006, the group joined other Sunni insurgent groups to form the short-lived Mujahideen Shura Council. After al-Zarqawi was killed in June 2006, the Mujahideen Shura Council merged in October 2006 with several more insurgent factions to establish ad-Dawlah al-ʻIrāq al-Islāmiyah, also known as the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI),[58] led by Abu Omar al-Baghdadi and Abu Ayyub al-Masri,[59] who were killed in a US–Iraqi operation in April 2010, being succeeded by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the group's new leader.

In August 2011, following the outbreak of the Syrian Civil War, ISI, now under the leadership of al-Baghdadi, delegated a mission into Syria, which under the name Jabhat an-Nuṣrah li-Ahli ash-Shām (or al-Nusra Front) established a large presence in Sunni-majority ar-Raqqah, Idlib, Deir ez-Zor, and Aleppo provinces. In April 2013, al-Baghdadi decreed the reunification of the Syrian al-Nusra Front with ISI to form the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL). However, Abu Mohammad al-Julani and Ayman al-Zawahiri, the leaders of al-Nusra and al-Qaeda respectively, rejected the merger. After an eight-month power struggle, al-Qaeda cut all ties with ISIL by February 2014, citing its failure to consult and "notorious intransigence".[3][52]

In early 2014, ISIL drove Iraqi government forces out of key cities in its Anbar campaign,[43] which was followed by the capture of Mosul[44] and the Sinjar massacre.[45] The loss of control almost caused a collapse of the Iraqi government and prompted a renewal of US military action in Iraq. In Syria, the group has conducted ground attacks on both government forces and rebel factions.

Foundation, 1999–2006
Main articles: Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn and Mujahideen Shura Council (Iraq)

Following the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Jordanian Salafi jihadist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his militant group Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, founded in 1999, achieved notoriety in the early stages of the Iraqi insurgency for the suicide attacks on Shia Islamic mosques, civilians, Iraqi government institutions and Italian soldiers partaking in the US-led 'Multi-National Force'. Al-Zarqawi's group officially pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network in October 2004, changing its name to Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (تنظيم قاعدة الجهاد في بلاد الرافدين, "Organisation of Jihad's Base in Mesopotamia"), also known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI).[1][76][77] Attacks by the group on civilians, Iraqi government and security forces, foreign diplomats and soldiers, and American convoys continued with roughly the same intensity. In a letter to al-Zarqawi in July 2005, al-Qaeda's then deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahiri outlined a four-stage plan to expand the Iraq War. The plan included expelling US forces from Iraq, establishing an Islamic authority as a caliphate, spreading the conflict to Iraq's secular neighbours, and clashing with Israel, which the letter says "was established only to challenge any new Islamic entity".[78]

In January 2006, AQI joined with several smaller Iraqi insurgent groups under an umbrella organisation called the Mujahideen Shura Council (MSC). According to Brian Fishman, this was little more than a media exercise and an attempt to give the group a more Iraqi flavour, and perhaps to distance al-Qaeda from some of al-Zarqawi's tactical errors, more notably the 2005 bombings by AQI of three hotels in Amman.[79] On 7 June 2006, a US airstrike killed al-Zarqawi, who was succeeded as leader of the group by the Egyptian militant Abu Ayyub al-Masri.[80][81]

On 12 October 2006, the MSC united with three smaller groups and six Sunni Islamic tribes to form the "Mutayibeen Coalition". It swore by Allah "to rid Sunnis from the oppression of the rejectionists (Shi'ite Muslims) and the crusader occupiers ... to restore rights even at the price of our own lives ... to make Allah's word supreme in the world, and to restore the glory of Islam".[82][83] A day later, the MSC declared the establishment of the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), comprising Iraq's six mostly Sunni Arab governorates.[84] Abu Omar al-Baghdadi was announced as its emir,[58][85] and al-Masri was given the title of Minister of War within the ISI's ten-member cabinet.[86]

As Islamic State of Iraq, 2006–13
Main article: Islamic State of Iraq

According to a study compiled by United States intelligence agencies in early 2007, the ISI—also known as AQI—planned to seize power in the central and western areas of Iraq and turn it into a Sunni caliphate.[87] The group built in strength and at its height enjoyed a significant presence in the Iraqi governorates of Al Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad, claiming Baqubah as a capital city.[88][89][90][91]

The Iraq War troop surge of 2007 supplied the United States military with more manpower for operations targeting the group, resulting in dozens of high-level AQI members being captured or killed.[92]

Between July and October 2007, al-Qaeda in Iraq was reported to have lost its secure military bases in Al Anbar province and the Baghdad area.[93] During 2008, a series of US and Iraqi offensives managed to drive out AQI-aligned insurgents from their former safe havens, such as the Diyala and Al Anbar governorates, to the area of the northern city of Mosul.[94]

By 2008, the ISI was describing itself as being in a state of "extraordinary crisis".[95] Its violent attempts to govern its territory led to a backlash from Sunni Arab Iraqis and other insurgent groups and a temporary decline in the group, which was attributable to a number of factors,[96] notably the Anbar Awakening.

In late 2009, the commander of US forces in Iraq, General Ray Odierno, stated that the ISI "has transformed significantly in the last two years. What once was dominated by foreign individuals has now become more and more dominated by Iraqi citizens".[97] On 18 April 2010, the ISI's two top leaders, Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, were killed in a joint US-Iraqi raid near Tikrit.[98] In a press conference in June 2010, General Odierno reported that 80% of the ISI's top 42 leaders, including recruiters and financiers, had been killed or captured, with only eight remaining at large. He said that they had been cut off from al-Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan.[99][100][101]

On 16 May 2010, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was appointed the new leader of the Islamic State of Iraq.[102][103] Al-Baghdadi replenished the group's leadership, many of whom had been killed or captured, by appointing former Ba'athist military and intelligence officers who had served during Saddam Hussein's rule.[104] These men, nearly all of whom had spent time imprisoned by the US military, came to make up about one third of Baghdadi's top 25 commanders. One of them was a former colonel, Samir al-Khlifawi, also known as Haji Bakr, who became the overall military commander in charge of overseeing the group's operations.[105][106] Al-Khlifawi was instrumental in doing the ground work that led to the growth of ISIL.[107]

In July 2012, al-Baghdadi released an audio statement online announcing that the group was returning to former strongholds from which US troops and the Sons of Iraq had driven them in 2007 and 2008.[108] He also declared the start of a new offensive in Iraq called Breaking the Walls, aimed at freeing members of the group held in I


HAPPY2BME

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Quite true and I NEVER once thought what we did in Vietnam was in vain! In fact I KNOW better!

========================================

Our personal experiences are what molds us into the person we become.  This applies on a national level as well. 

I have a good friend (now deceased) who (as a USMC French linguist) served with the French in Vietnam in 1954-55 along with several hundred other U.S. Marines.  All those early missions were classified secret, so as not to upset American populace into having the fears of a military draft so early after WWII had ended.  Then, my older brother served in 'Nam three consecutive years (66-69) as USMC recon and was wounded so many time he started turning down Purple Hearts in order to stay with his men.  (I know a similar situation (3 year consecutive tours in Iraq) from another U.S. Army officer (my son) who was also highly decorated from Iraq in recent years.)

I served during Nam, but didn't see a combat zone until Desert Storm.  Collectively, my immediate nuclear family (self, sons, brother, father, uncles have served almost 110 years in uniform).  In our personal experiences we agree that all wars since WWII (Korea is 'negotiable') were purely political wars.  We shake our heads and ask 'WHY!?' did we do that without the national resolve to achieve clear and lasting victory?  And why, if this 'campaign on the war on terror' is so critical to the future of this nation is THERE NO DRAFT to equally distribute the personal stake and investment of ALL Americans - especially those elected government officials who send the sons and daughters to die for 'their cause' and usually never wind up sending their OWN sons and daughters (for THEIR cause).

Upon careful reflections, studious personal recollections and experiences spanning the last half century of American history, we can do nothing but draw the same conclusions of Generals Douglas MacArthur and Smedley Butler who dared expose the demonic beast driving Americans into war not for their own safety and security, but for the furthering of fame and fortunes of the American oligarchy, who usually pays next to nothing in personal expense, but always reap the bounties.  And we must not exclude Ike's warning about the 'Military Industrial Complex' given on almost the last day of his presidency in a nationally televised speech on the subject.  These men most definitely saw it and lived it and did their damnedest to war the country - all to no avail.  We are owned by the oligarchy.  History tells us that both of these great men were castigated and demonized by their own elected representatives for EXPOSING THE REAL MOTIVES for Americans being sent into FOREIGN battle on FOREIGN soils.  Nothing has changed in almost 100 years (since 1918), and nothing is going to change.  Essentially, there is NOTHING WE CAN DO TO CHANGE IT.  The most recent example is eGOP Paul Ryan COMPLETELY SIDING with Barack Obama if you want current proof: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/12/paul_ryan_s_first_deal_is_just_like_john_boehner_s_old_ones.html

Here you are sir.








Offline EdinVA

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This is exactly why we must have a draft with NO exceptions.  It will keep the ruling class from starting wars to fill their pockets.

Offline Fishrrman

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Reality Check: Ted Cruz Says Middle East Was Better Off Before War On Terror

Memo to Senator Cruz:

It doesn't matter.
Before.
After.
Makes no difference.

Because the Middle East (sans Israel, of course) is muslim.

So long as it remains so, it is a danger to the rest of the world.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Realy easy way to expose the simplistic nonsnse here.

What should we have done after 09-11 Senator Cruz?

Sorry fact of the matter is Cruz would of done exactly the same thing Bush did. Al Gore would of done the same thing. Hillary Clinton would of done the same thing.



Why Iraq...

Just read it again and calling this a brilliant post does not do justice to the thoroughness and depth that you have contemplated this issue.  Bravo! 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 07:16:38 am by Once-Ler »

Offline Free Vulcan

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Cruz is both right and wrong. There are rarely good choices in the ME. Leave Iraq alone, we have Saddam coming after us, or the Mullahs in Iran, or pick your poison with several other countries. Go in and take them out, or create an Arab spring, then something worse rises in the place, like ISIS, unless you are willing to stay there a long long time maybe. Then you get the slow bleed of roadside bombs like Iraq or constant engagements during the warm months from border countries such as Pakistan like our troops face in Afghanistan.

The ME is a festering bunghole and I certainly don't know how to fix it except for maybe one thing - coming up with a way to make their oil completely useless with a new source of energy and taking away their terrorist play money.
The Republic is lost.

Offline GAJohnnie

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The ME is a festering bunghole and I certainly don't know how to fix it except for maybe one thing - coming up with a way to make their oil completely useless with a new source of energy and taking away their terrorist play money.


 :amen:

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The ME is a festering bunghole and I certainly don't know how to fix it except for maybe one thing - coming up with a way to make their oil completely useless with a new source of energy and taking away their terrorist play money.


...uh, that exactly what Obama has wanted to do since Day One.  Unfortunately, he doesn't want to wait until said technology is invented, because his primary goal is to wreck, destroy and cause pain and suffering to the American worker.   ....'specially the White Man.
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Offline EdinVA

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The ME is a festering bunghole and I certainly don't know how to fix it except for maybe one thing - coming up with a way to make their oil completely useless with a new source of energy and taking away their terrorist play money.

Your assertion that oil is the only thing that makes the ME a bunghole?
They will just switch to drugs and destroy the rest of whatever economy is left.

Very simplistic view...

Offline GAJohnnie

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Your assertion that oil is the only thing that makes the ME a bunghole?
They will just switch to drugs and destroy the rest of whatever economy is left.

Very simplistic view...

No the statement is that without oil, the ME would have the same level of strategic importance to the US National Security as Africa or SE Asia does. The poster is correct. Energy independence for the USA would remove our need for such high levels of military/political engagement in the ME.

Offline GourmetDan

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No the statement is that without oil, the ME would have the same level of strategic importance to the US National Security as Africa or SE Asia does. The poster is correct. Energy independence for the USA would remove our need for such high levels of military/political engagement in the ME.

Maybe it's not U.S. strategic interests that we are fighting for...


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No the statement is that without oil, the ME would have the same level of strategic importance to the US National Security as Africa or SE Asia does. The poster is correct. Energy independence for the USA would remove our need for such high levels of military/political engagement in the ME.

While that may be true it ignores the fact that the Mullahs would remain in charge in Iran and be able to continue creating their mischief all over the world in the name of ALLAH!

They ain't going to go away just because we no longer need their oil!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GAJohnnie

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Without the Oil money how the Mullahs going to pay for their mischief?

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Without the Oil money how the Mullahs going to pay for their mischief?

You seem to be under the illusion that if WE don't buy their oil no one is going to buy it and that is profoundly untrue.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EdinVA

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Without the Oil money how the Mullahs going to pay for their mischief?

Before they took over the oil fields, they were still running over the ME...

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Without the Oil money how the Mullahs going to pay for their mischief?
The same way they always do: looting and plundering their victims. Human trafficking. Anything. They're a criminal enterprise; money is no object.
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Offline GAJohnnie

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Before they took over the oil fields, they were still running over the ME...

um no actually they were not. The "root cause" of this current Islamic Fascistic mess is the financial power taking over Iran in 1978 gave the radicals. it gave their fanaticism a global reach.

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um no actually they were not. The "root cause" of this current Islamic Fascistic mess is the financial power taking over Iran in 1978 gave the radicals. it gave their fanaticism a global reach.

Now you're on the right track!  Jimmih Caata allowed the Mullahs to take over in Iran and NOTHING has been the same since! That is why Cruz is exactly right in what he says! Sadam - bastard that he was - held Iran somewhat in check! Who's doing that now?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Free Vulcan

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True, they may still be in charge, but without being awash in oil money, it will be hard for them to DO anything. They will spend most of their time and resources trying to keep their own people from plotting against them and not funding terrorism.
The Republic is lost.

Offline GAJohnnie

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You seem to be under the illusion that if WE don't buy their oil no one is going to buy it and that is profoundly untrue.

If you can do business, with a much short logitics pipeline from the North American, in much stabler, secure environment, why would you buy ME oil?

Arab oil is cheap, which is why the world buys it. Given them a more marketable alternative source and the costs out weight the benefits of doing business in the ME
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:49:16 pm by GAJohnnie »

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True, they may still be in charge, but without being awash in oil money, it will be hard for them to DO anything. They will spend most of their time and resources trying to keep their own people from plotting against them and not funding terrorism.

And if WE were to give their own people just a little help here and there under the table what do you think might happen?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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If you can do business, with a much short logitics pipeline from the North American, in much stabler, secure environment, why would you buy ME oil?

Arab oil is cheap, which is why the world buys it. Given them a more marketable alternative source and the costs out weight the benefits of doing business in the ME

Can you tell who had the dollar bill in your pocket before it came to you?  Same is true of oil to a very large degree! We are probably buying oil from ISIS today and don't even know it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Not discounting economics but another aspect is that for a long time global oil reserves were believed to be quite finite.  It made sense from a long-term perspective to first consume the other guys' reserves.  With the success of fracking and directional drilling, combined with more identified reserves, the thinking is changing somewhat. Certainly, the economics have.

As for the Middle East, generational and cultural hate will always find a way to destroy, kill and maim.  Even if it is one guy with an AK-47.
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