Author Topic: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost  (Read 2842 times)

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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/they-really-really-don-t-him_996621.html



Barack Obama is not popular. This plain and simple fact may surprise those who read only legacy journalists, who often elide this inconvenient truth. A recent Associated Press write-up is illustrative:
Quote
Even as the public remains closely divided about his presidency, Barack Obama is holding on to his support from the so-called “Obama coalition” of minorities, liberals and young Americans, an Associated Press-GfK poll shows, creating an incentive for the next Democratic presidential nominee to stick with him and his policies.

Obama’s job approval in this poll was a paltry 43 percent, with 55 percent disapproval. This is hardly a public “closely divided,” but it is typical of the media’s approach. They prefer to gloss over his bad numbers, point out the weakness of the GOP, or emphasize how popular he is among Democrats.

But ignoring a fact does not make it any less true. Obama is unpopular, and he has been unpopular for a while. The most straightforward definition of a popular president is one who garners at least 50 percent approval in public opinion polls. The last time Obama hit that mark in the Real Clear Politics average of national polls was April 2013. Excepting brief boosts corresponding to his reelection and the killing of Osama bin Laden, he has consistently been under 50 percent in the RCP average since December 2009. This makes him one of the least popular presidents in postwar history.

Gallup has kept regular track of presidential approval since the Truman administration. It reports that the most popular postwar presidents were Dwight Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and Bill Clinton; their job approval ratings were 50 percent or better for at least two-thirds of their tenures. The least popular presidents were Harry Truman, Gerald Ford, and Jimmy Carter; theirs were below 50 percent for at least two-thirds of their tenures. Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, and George W. Bush fall somewhere in between.

To date, Obama has been unpopular for more than two-thirds of his tenure. If he stays under 50 percent for the remainder of his term, he will have been unpopular for longer than any postwar leader.

Obama’s numbers have been remarkably stable, typically hovering between 42 and 45 percent approval, outside those honeymoon periods. This distinguishes him from Truman, Ford, and Carter, whose numbers sunk much lower (as did George W. Bush’s and Nixon’s). The difference is that Obama has retained strong support from Democrats, while other presidents lost substantial intraparty support. With Obama at the helm, the Democratic party is as united as it has been since the mid-1930s. Will Rogers’ famous quip—“I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.”—is no longer apt. Democratic disunity was evident as late as 2000, when Ralph Nader poached a decisive share of the progressive vote from Al Gore, but it is no more.

Democratic loyalists (which includes voters who identify as independent but reliably vote Democrat) are a solid 5 to 8 points short of an outright majority, however, contradicting boasts from party operatives that demographics give them a lock on the White House. Most public opinion polls sample adults, who tend to be more Democratic than actual voters, yet still consistently show the president falling quite short of 50 percent. If Obama were indeed the herald of an enduring Democratic majority, we should see this first and foremost in the RCP average. But in fact, we find the opposite: The president, while holding his base together, has nevertheless alienated the critical mass of independent voters who determine elections.

Historically speaking, changes in presidential job approval track fairly closely with three factors: a war going badly, scandal, and recession. When any of these occurs, presidential approval falls. When several happen at once—as with Truman, Nixon, and George W. Bush—presidential approval can fall very low indeed. Yet Obama’s tenure has not seen such problems, at least not to the extent past presidents have. Sure, the rise of ISIS is terrible, the IRS targeting conservative groups is highly objectionable, and the economy remains mired in weakness. But none compares to Vietnam in 1967, Watergate in 1974, or the economy in 2008.

While those three problems are not as salient today as they have been in the past, they still matter. We don’t have a war right now, but we have foreign troubles. We don’t have a scandal that implicates Obama, but we have had malfeasance and incompetence from government agencies. We don’t have a recession, but this is still the worst recovery of the postwar era. The cumulative effect on the public mood is evident. According to Real Clear Politics, 61 percent of Americans believe that the country is on the wrong track. Apart from a brief surge of optimism early in Obama’s tenure, this appraisal has more or less remained the same.

The country likewise does not believe Obama’s policy prescriptions are sensible. Obamacare has been unpopular, of course, since before it became law. And in mid-2010, a Pew poll found that 62 percent of Americans thought the stimulus did not create jobs; even a majority of Democrats held this view. More generally, the exit polls from the 2012 election—which Democrats claim marked a defining shift in the body politic—found a country skeptical of Obama’s brand of big government. A majority of respondents agreed, “Government is doing too many things better left to businesses and individuals,” and slight pluralities preferred Mitt Romney on the economy and the deficit. According to the exit polls, Obama carried the day because of his personal appeal. During his second term, House Republicans—who were empowered precisely to stop the president—have mostly forced him to temper his leftist ambitions. Yet Obama’s marks on foreign affairs have suffered, with the country regularly disapproving of his handling of ISIS and Iran.

So although there is no acute crisis, Americans do not think the nation is in good shape, and because most people are skeptical of Obama’s domestic and foreign policies, they have soured on him. His approval ratings are not the lowest presidents have seen, but he has fallen under 50 percent more consistently than any of his predecessors.

Though Hillary Clinton is increasingly dominating the political spotlight, the president’s standing will affect the 2016 contest. Clinton is scurrying leftward to keep Bernie Sanders and Martin O’Malley from winning the progressive vote, but in so doing she risks alienating the middle of the country, which has tired of activist government. And it is quite likely that, as his former secretary of state, Clinton will be seen as Obama’s successor, thus bearing the burden of his unpopularity.

All this gives the GOP the best opportunity to retake the presidency since 1980. The country is unhappy with the state of the union. If voters believe that conservatives offer a change for the better, Obama’s persistent unpopularity should vault the Republican nominee into the White House.

Offline xfreeper

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 05:37:51 am »
They're racists

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 05:52:37 am »
Yet, he pretty much gets his way at every turn.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 06:58:22 am »
Yet, he pretty much gets his way at every turn.

Brit Hume: Claim That Congress Gives Obama Everything He Wants Is "Utter Nonsense"
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,183563.0.html

A famous claim of their supporters is that the GOP Congress has "given Obama everything he wants."

It is utter nonsense. Here is a partial list of items Mr. Obama has requested from Congress since the GOP took the House back in 2010:

-- The American Jobs Act
-- The Paycheck Fairness Act
-- An increase in the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour
-- An array of gun control measures
-- Universal pre-kindergarten education
-- A week's paid sick leave for all
-- Higher tax rates on the rich
-- A new minimum tax on multinational companies
-- Overhaul and expansion of unemployment benefits

Offline xfreeper

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2015, 01:06:46 pm »
Brit Hume: Claim That Congress Gives Obama Everything He Wants Is "Utter Nonsense"
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,183563.0.html

A famous claim of their supporters is that the GOP Congress has "given Obama everything he wants."

It is utter nonsense. Here is a partial list of items Mr. Obama has requested from Congress since the GOP took the House back in 2010:

-- The American Jobs Act
-- The Paycheck Fairness Act
-- An increase in the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour
-- An array of gun control measures
-- Universal pre-kindergarten education
-- A week's paid sick leave for all
-- Higher tax rates on the rich
-- A new minimum tax on multinational companies
-- Overhaul and expansion of unemployment benefits

WOW. Paid sick leave......Gee, this is only a partial list and my list isn't nearly as lengthy. It only has a couple piddly items. Let's see.....Obamacare, Iran deal.....

Offline musiclady

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2015, 01:11:53 pm »
WOW. Paid sick leave......Gee, this is only a partial list and my list isn't nearly as lengthy. It only has a couple piddly items. Let's see.....Obamacare, Iran deal.....

Not a single Republican voted for Obamacare.  It was rammed through in the dead of night when the Dems had the majorities.

Don't list that when your goal is (clearly) to bash Republicans......
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline xfreeper

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2015, 04:30:31 pm »
Not a single Republican voted for Obamacare.  It was rammed through in the dead of night when the Dems had the majorities.

Don't list that when your goal is (clearly) to bash Republicans......
You have no clue what my goal is so please.....
As far as republicans not voting for obamacare, you are playing the same stupid game they played. They had a way of stopping the vote but it was key turncoat republicans that refused to do that. Typical playing it both ways so they could talk out of both sides of their mouth.

Offline musiclady

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2015, 06:31:05 pm »
You have no clue what my goal is so please.....
As far as republicans not voting for obamacare, you are playing the same stupid game they played. They had a way of stopping the vote but it was key turncoat republicans that refused to do that. Typical playing it both ways so they could talk out of both sides of their mouth.

Citing the FACT that not a single Republican voted for Obamacare is not a "playing a stupid game."

Perhaps you're not as 'x' a freeper as you think you are, if the only way you debate is to level insults.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2015, 07:07:27 pm »
Brit Hume: Claim That Congress Gives Obama Everything He Wants Is "Utter Nonsense"
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,183563.0.html

A famous claim of their supporters is that the GOP Congress has "given Obama everything he wants."

It is utter nonsense. Here is a partial list of items Mr. Obama has requested from Congress since the GOP took the House back in 2010:

-- The American Jobs Act
-- The Paycheck Fairness Act
-- An increase in the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour
-- An array of gun control measures
-- Universal pre-kindergarten education
-- A week's paid sick leave for all
-- Higher tax rates on the rich
-- A new minimum tax on multinational companies
-- Overhaul and expansion of unemployment benefits

Fair enough, he doesn't get his way on "everything". Let's face it, if he did he'd be running for another term.

But he has pushed the country significantly in his direction - regardless of his unpopularity.  That is something that cannot be said of the past two Republican presidents.  They had successes, yes, but the country did not move in the Republican direction.  Under Obama, the overall policy direction has moved significantly to the left.

Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

...Bob Dylan

Offline xfreeper

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2015, 07:37:24 pm »
Citing the FACT that not a single Republican voted for Obamacare is not a "playing a stupid game."

Perhaps you're not as 'x' a freeper as you think you are, if the only way you debate is to level insults.

Totally ignoring the fact that republicans had an opportunity to stop the thing in committee and voted not to.
Who is insulting who? Is that the only way you know how to respond?

Offline musiclady

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2015, 07:54:34 pm »
Totally ignoring the fact that republicans had an opportunity to stop the thing in committee and voted not to.
Who is insulting who? Is that the only way you know how to respond?

With the truth?

As a matter of fact, that's the way I always respond....
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline xfreeper

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2015, 09:26:32 pm »
So, to wrap it up. The GOP (Snowe, I believe) had the option of stopping this thing in committee but voted not to do that, knowing full well that it couldn't be stopped later. That's the typical I voted against it after I voted for it (talking out of both sides of the month). She didn't want to be ...have the guts to be....the only GOP to vote in favor of it but it was her own favorable vote earlier that allowed it to proceed when they could have stopped it. So it is very disingenuous to say not one GOP vote.... as they, and apparently you, like to say.

Offline musiclady

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2015, 10:41:30 pm »
So, to wrap it up. The GOP (Snowe, I believe) had the option of stopping this thing in committee but voted not to do that, knowing full well that it couldn't be stopped later. That's the typical I voted against it after I voted for it (talking out of both sides of the month). She didn't want to be ...have the guts to be....the only GOP to vote in favor of it but it was her own favorable vote earlier that allowed it to proceed when they could have stopped it. So it is very disingenuous to say not one GOP vote.... as they, and apparently you, like to say.

So, now I'm 'disingenuous.'  And you claim that I'm the one insulting you.

(btw, I can't stand Olympia Snowe....... not that the truth matters to you, now that your mind is made up about me).
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2015, 10:57:02 pm »
Yet, he pretty much gets his way at every turn.

Actually, he doesn't.  The sequester is still in place, his immigration EO has been stayed by federal courts, and Gitmo will still be open when he leaves office. 

Obama's foreign policy is in shambles and Putin kicks sand in his face at every opportunity.

Like every two-termer, America is sick and tired of Barack Obama.  The question is, do they want more of the same?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2015, 11:03:33 pm »
So, to wrap it up. The GOP (Snowe, I believe) had the option of stopping this thing in committee but voted not to do that, knowing full well that it couldn't be stopped later. That's the typical I voted against it after I voted for it (talking out of both sides of the month). She didn't want to be ...have the guts to be....the only GOP to vote in favor of it but it was her own favorable vote earlier that allowed it to proceed when they could have stopped it. So it is very disingenuous to say not one GOP vote.... as they, and apparently you, like to say.

The Democrats had to use the Reconciliation process to pass Ocare; subject it to regular order, and it would have been filibustered in the Senate.

"They" could not stop Olympia Snowe from voting as she did.  She knew was retiring and nobody was going to restrain her. 

The Democrats passed Obamacare without one single Repulbican vote. That is the truth and America knows it.   

By the way, the entire increase in covering uninsured people in the last five years has come under the Medicaid program.  And there are still 33 million uninsured in the US.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline musiclady

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2015, 11:08:06 pm »
The Democrats had to use the Reconciliation process to pass Ocare; subject it to regular order, and it would have been filibustered in the Senate.

"They" could not stop Olympia Snowe from voting as she did.  She knew was retiring and nobody was going to restrain her. 

The Democrats passed Obamacare without one single Repulbican vote. That is the truth and America knows it.   

By the way, the entire increase in covering uninsured people in the last five years has come under the Medicaid program.  And there are still 33 million uninsured in the US.

Well, at least MOST of America.........
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline xfreeper

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 12:42:49 am »
After she passed it out of committee, they didn't need her vote. That's the point but I understand if someone doesn't want to accept that because it doesn't fit their narrative. It's easier to trumpet that the dems passed obamacare without one republican vote and ignore that they needed her vote to get it there. Politicians like when they can have it both ways because the voters will fall for it

Online Fishrrman

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 01:12:08 am »
"All this gives the GOP the best opportunity to retake the presidency since 1980. The country is unhappy with the state of the union. If voters believe that conservatives offer a change for the better, Obama’s persistent unpopularity should vault the Republican nominee into the White House."

Wait a minute. Not quite so fast.

The "America" of 1980 is radically changed from the nation that exists today.

Changed not only in political temperament, but changed in demographics.

Reagan in 1980 did not face a "democratic electoral college wall" of 242 votes that are unlikely to go to the Republican side.

Reagan in 1980 didn't face a system of voting so worked over by "voter reform" that fraud is far easier to introduce into the process now, than back then.

Reagan in 1980 didn't have hordes of illegals who have no right to participate in the election who are being deliberately introduced into the voter rolls by the left, witness the recent law in California that automatically puts those who receive drivers licenses onto the rolls (including illegals).

It ain't Ron Reagan's America no mo'.

No matter who gets nominated by the Pubbies in 2016, it's STILL going to be a fight to beat the left.

The days of a Republican cakewalkin' to the inauguration have ended.
Forever...

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2015, 02:55:49 am »
Fair enough, he doesn't get his way on "everything". Let's face it, if he did he'd be running for another term.

Then we are not completely at odds with our perspectives.

Quote
But he has pushed the country significantly in his direction - regardless of his unpopularity.  That is something that cannot be said of the past two Republican presidents.  They had successes, yes, but the country did not move in the Republican direction.  Under Obama, the overall policy direction has moved significantly to the left.

I can understand your argument, and agree with it to a certain extent on some social issues and government spending.  I can also come up with some great excuses for the Bushs, but my heart isn't in it tonight.

Here is where I come from.  I have 3 issues that weigh heavily on my political opinions.  1 taxes 2 national defense 3 abortion.  All the other issues are ancillary for me.  Not that they are unimportant but I have a limited attention span so I focus on those 3.

Dubya reduced my taxes, fought for the unborn and both Bushs flexed our military muscle.  I could go into more detail but you can probably see my point without further clarification that both Bushs did move the country to the right on those issues at least marginally.

Let me know if this quick response is too vague and I'll take the time to further elucidate.  I'm willing to do that if you want, because I think you are a reasonable fellow, and I want you to understand my point of view even if you don't agree with it.

I hope you are enjoying the weekend.


Offline Bigun

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2015, 03:04:50 am »
Then we are not completely at odds with our perspectives.

I can understand your argument, and agree with it to a certain extent on some social issues and government spending.  I can also come up with some great excuses for the Bushs, but my heart isn't in it tonight.

Here is where I come from.  I have 3 issues that weigh heavily on my political opinions.  1 taxes 2 national defense 3 abortion.  All the other issues are ancillary for me.  Not that they are unimportant but I have a limited attention span so I focus on those 3.

Dubya reduced my taxes, fought for the unborn and both Bushs flexed our military muscle.  I could go into more detail but you can probably see my point without further clarification that both Bushs did move the country to the right on those issues at least marginally.

Let me know if this quick response is too vague and I'll take the time to further elucidate.  I'm willing to do that if you want, because I think you are a reasonable fellow, and I want you to understand my point of view even if you don't agree with it.

I hope you are enjoying the weekend.

GHW broke his read my lips pledge and W allowed Karl and company talk him into going for social security reform before tax reform so I have a very different point of view on those matters than you do.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Relic

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2015, 03:08:23 am »
Actually, he doesn't.  The sequester is still in place, his immigration EO has been stayed by federal courts, and Gitmo will still be open when he leaves office. 

Obama's foreign policy is in shambles and Putin kicks sand in his face at every opportunity.

Like every two-termer, America is sick and tired of Barack Obama.  The question is, do they want more of the same?

The answer is yes. Yes they do.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2015, 03:17:55 am »
GHW broke his read my lips pledge and W allowed Karl and company talk him into going for social security reform before tax reform so I have a very different point of view on those matters than you do.

You are correct.  Both Bushs  moved the country to the right militarily.  Only Dubya moved the country to the right on taxes and abortion.

As for SS that is a huge issue and I can't fault Dubya for trying and failing. You, however, may.

Thank you for correcting me.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 03:20:02 am by Once-Ler »

Offline Bigun

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2015, 03:32:39 am »
You are correct.  Both Bushs  moved the country to the right militarily.  Only Dubya moved the country to the right on taxes and abortion.

As for SS that is a huge issue and I can't fault Dubya for trying and failing. You, however, may.

Thank you for correcting me.

I don't fault him for trying I just fault him for not doing tax reform - which had very broad support - first and winding up not getting either.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2015, 03:50:23 am »
I don't fault him for trying I just fault him for not doing tax reform - which had very broad support - first and winding up not getting either.
I agree that was a strategic blunder.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: They Really, Really Don’t Like Him Our unpopular president. Jay Cost
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2015, 04:20:40 am »
I'm not sure how Bush moved the country to the right on abortion, that issue seems to be permanently in stasis - but that is not an issue I follow closely, so I might be missing something on the margins.

I have difficulty separating taxes from government spending, so on balance - lacking major reform - it seems that he failed to move the ball in a significant way there.  It is on defense that I think in balance Bush was very disappointing. True he seemed to move us rightward but the results were so disastrous that he became a deeply hated and divisive figure - and the idea of the U.S. using its military might has become so discredited that we are far weaker today because of his actions...and it was Bush-hatred in the nation that created the powerful move to the left in America that we are experiencing to this day.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 04:21:47 am by Scottftlc »
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

...Bob Dylan