Should The Confederate Flag Be Banned?

[truth_seeker]

I think it's high time that the Democrat battle flag be put to rest.

Haven't heard a Republican smart enough politically to make that connection.

But it is sitting there like a hanging curveball, ready to hit out of the park. Lindsey Graham might take a shot at this.

 

[evadR]

I think it's high time that the Democrat battle flag be put to rest.

That would be a snake mounted on a pile of donkey crap.

[mountaineer]

No speech, word or belief should be banned, no matter how bad it is. It is a road that has no end.

Those who want to ban the battle flag would have a hissy fit if anyone suggested banning the Quran, though. 

[MACVSOG68]

Like it or not many people died for a cause. The Civil was not fought over slavery it was states Rights. Actually slaver was ending as slaves were very expensive to purchase, and keep. in fact the slaver were sold in to slavery by there  own tribes.   

The whole states rights issue was BS.  Before the attempted secession, every state had a "right" to have or not have slaves.  When the confederacy was formed, the new constitution forbid any state from making slavery illegal.  Doesn't sound like the confederates were much into states rights.

In fact, with the election of Lincoln, they knew that future slave state growth in the territories was simply not going to happen.  No more compromises were likely.  Some would rather claim the secession was about economics.  Well in that there is some truth, since it was the economics of slavery.

I wasn't sure how to answer the original question.  Banned where?  I don't think it belongs on my state's public property, but for other states, it's none of my business.  But I don't really care about it being anywhere else.  Suddenly everyone including Republicans are running scared because this insane punk showed a picture with the confederate flag. 

I live in South Carolina, and we clearly do not have the racial issues of other states as the riots have shown.  Few people had confederate flags on cars or flagpoles here.  Now I sense we'll see a lot more just because people will push back against such perceived authoritarian tactics.

The left will frequently use such things as flags and guns and even Christianity as the causes of violence when it serves their political goals, but when it comes to something like Islam, they vehemently deny it has anything to do with those who use Islam as a justification for mass murders, mayhem and the denial of even basic human rights for women.   

[mountaineer]

The left will frequently use such things as flags and guns and even Christianity as the causes of violence when it serves their political goals, but when it comes to something like Islam, they vehemently deny it has anything to do with those who use Islam as a justification for mass murders, mayhem and the denial of even basic human rights for women.   

Agreed. The Quran expressly instructs its followers to kill others. Flags pretty much just hang there, occasionally fluttering, and I have yet to see a flag pick up a gun and shoot someone.

[GourmetDan]

Like it or not many people died for a cause. The Civil was not fought over slavery it was states Rights. Actually slaver was ending as slaves were very expensive to purchase, and keep. in fact the slaver were sold in to slavery by there  own tribes. Did you know the US Government attempted to send slaves out of the US??

Abraham Lincoln wanted to ship freed black slaves away from the US to British colonies in the Caribbean even in the final months of his life, it has emerged.
Organization founded in 1817 to send blacks back to Africa?

That's why Liberia was founded... as a U.S. colony in Africa for freed slaves.  It's capitol, Monrovia, is named for U.S. president James Monroe...

[jmyrlefuller]

Point to be made here: let's not discount slavery as an underlying cause of the Civil War, but it was far from the only one. That fight had been going on for several decades without tearing the country into two.

It wasn't until 1860 that the whole war started. Let's recall: radical Northeastern leftists, having never recovered from the collapse of the Federalist Party some decades prior and dissatisfied with the totally aimless Whigs that had replaced them, founded a political party known as the Republican Party and, after much infighting, chose upstart Abraham Lincoln as their nominee. Meanwhile, the Democratic Party (the party of Andrew Jackson and his successors), split: the southern states picked pro-slavery zealot John Breckenridge, while the moderates went with moderate Stephen Douglas. The remnants of the Whigs chose Sen. John Bell.

Lincoln ended up with only 40% of the vote but won anyway, despite not even being on the ballot in much of the south, because the states Lincoln won in the north had more than enough electoral college votes to render the south's opinions worthless.

Furthermore, only a few of the wealthiest landowners in parts of the South had any large number of slaves, because those were the only people who could afford them. Most of the South consisted of poor white subsistence farmers who had to rely on their own hands.

THAT'S why the South split off to form the Confederacy—a classic case of politics over policy. Had it been for any other issue but slavery, the South would have had the higher moral ground.

[MACVSOG68]

The South Carolina Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union lays out all of the causes leading to the secession and ultimate formation of the CSA.  It was the increasing attempts to free fugitive slaves, the decreased chances for slavery in the territories and ultimate fear that slavery would be abolished throughout the Union.

From the Declaration:

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

Many still believe that secession had to do with independence and freedom, but states joining the Confederacy had less freedom, and almost 50% of the population of the slave states had no freedom.  One third of families in the slave states owned slaves, and no state in the Confederacy could opt out of slavery as a state.

[PzLdr]

Just bought a 4'x6' for my flag pole.

[Paladin]

Hey, MACVSOG68.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

Jmyrlefuller has it right when he states: "Point to be made here: let's not discount slavery as an underlying cause of the Civil War, but it was far from the only one." The roots of the War of Northern Aggression can be found in the 1828 Tariff of Abominations which showed the South their economic interests would be subordinated to the mercantilist policies of the northern states. The South saw the handwriting on the wall and relations began to deteriorate thereafter.

[olde north church]

Hey, MACVSOG68.
Jmyrlefuller has it right when he states: "Point to be made here: let's not discount slavery as an underlying cause of the Civil War, but it was far from the only one." The roots of the War of Northern Aggression can be found in the 1828 Tariff of Abominations which showed the South their economic interests would be subordinated to the mercantilist policies of the northern states. The South saw the handwriting on the wall and relations began to deteriorate thereafter.

This is the "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN" moment.  The "Whites of their eyes moment".  Let there be no mistaking, this ain't the "Summer of Love" people.  The MSM and racial agitators were looking for their "Pavlik moment" and it didn't work out.  The Christians would not allow it.
With that failure, the Leftists had to thumb through their playbook.  Turned up the heat on the back burner and started salivating at the "Stars and Bars".
As the 2011 "Occupy" movement started the 2012 election season, the 2015 will define the 2016 election.  Mark.  My.  Words.

[MACVSOG68]

Hey, MACVSOG68.
Jmyrlefuller has it right when he states: "Point to be made here: let's not discount slavery as an underlying cause of the Civil War, but it was far from the only one." The roots of the War of Northern Aggression can be found in the 1828 Tariff of Abominations which showed the South their economic interests would be subordinated to the mercantilist policies of the northern states. The South saw the handwriting on the wall and relations began to deteriorate thereafter.

The 1828 Tariff was resolved after the Nullification Crisis, and tariffs were lowered 5 years later.  By 1860, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia Kentucky and South Carolina were among the 10 wealthiest states in the Union. But the continued efforts to destroy the institution of slavery and prohibit its growth into the territories was the overwhelming reason for the secession.  When Lincoln was elected, in spite of his inauguration promise to leave slavery alone, the handwriting was on the wall and South Carolina made the first move.

I live in South Carolina, and I rarely hear the moral justification for the secession.  Yes there are still a few groups around who live in the past here, but far from the riots of Baltimore and Missouri, and the racial lawlessness of New York, Chicago, Detroit and other large cities, South Carolina is a relatively peaceful and thoughtful state, as the recent reaction to the killer in Charleston has demonstrated.

I couldn't care less about the Confederate flag.  But this reaction to the flag has descended into utter insanity.  It does demonstrate how quickly and effectively the left can impact the social order, and for that we should be very concerned.  Forget trying to find some subtle moral justification for the deeds perpetrated by the Democrat Party, and which the Republican Party spent a hundred years trying to repair.  As several have said here, stand up and be counted and put the blame for the racial history in the US where it belongs...With the Democrats!

 

[MACVSOG68]

This is the "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN" moment.  The "Whites of their eyes moment".  Let there be no mistaking, this ain't the "Summer of Love" people.  The MSM and racial agitators were looking for their "Pavlik moment" and it didn't work out.  The Christians would not allow it.
With that failure, the Leftists had to thumb through their playbook.  Turned up the heat on the back burner and started salivating at the "Stars and Bars".
As the 2011 "Occupy" movement started the 2012 election season, the 2015 will define the 2016 election.  Mark.  My.  Words.

You may be right.  One way or another race will play a big role, either with more violence, or at the polls or both.

[evadR]

"Point to be made here: let's not discount slavery as an underlying cause of the Civil War, but it was far from the only one." The roots of the War of Northern Aggression can be found in the 1828 Tariff of Abominations which showed the South their economic interests would be subordinated to the mercantilist policies of the northern states. The South saw the handwriting on the wall and relations began to deteriorate thereafter."

I think this is an excellent comment.  I ran it by my cousin who is a civil war historian and this was the reply.

"Well...I agree with it, but it's a bit biased in nature (i.e. a Southerner wrote this), and the cause stemming from the "1828 Tariff of Abominations" is a bit inflated.  Whereas its role was minor, it did have a bit part in the 4 decades leading up to the Civil War."

[MACVSOG68]

Interestingly, following the 1828 tariff crisis, tariffs generally dropped until by 1857, they were at one of the lowest points in US history.  Of course after SC secession and just prior to hostilities, tariffs were again raised, and once the war began, the South truly learned what high taxes were all about.

[Lando Lincoln]

Good commentary here...

[Paladin]

Interestingly, following the 1828 tariff crisis, tariffs generally dropped until by 1857, they were at one of the lowest points in US history

True enough, but the very fact it was adopted showed the South their economic interests were in danger due to Northern economic interests. It was the beginning and, pace evadR²'s cousin, was the spark which grew into the flame of sectional animosity.

[MACVSOG68]

True enough, but the very fact it was adopted showed the South their economic interests were in danger due to Northern economic interests. It was the beginning and, pace evadR²'s cousin, was the spark which grew into the flame of sectional animosity.

Still they waited over 30 years to a time when the future of slavery was truly in doubt to begin secession.  And then the Confederacy began taxing everything including slaves.  I do agree it was an economic decision, since without slavery, the South would have been the poorest area in the Union, not the wealthiest which it was by 1860.  20 years later, it was the poorest area.  Another interesting note in the history of the time was that the Confederacy at one point actually withheld cotton shipments to Europe to force them to push the North to negotiate for peace.  It didn't work.

Perhaps some of those who voted for secession did think about future tariffs, but the secession declaration simply didn't mention it.

[olde north church]

True enough, but the very fact it was adopted showed the South their economic interests were in danger due to Northern economic interests. It was the beginning and, pace evadR²'s cousin, was the spark which grew into the flame of sectional animosity.

Hmm, "Northern Economic Interests", such as using child labor at 2 cents a day for 12 to 14 hours a day OR "Southern Economic Interests", using slave labor for free + room/board, food, clothing, fiddles and banjoes.  Okay, the fiddles and banjoes were just funnin' but it's all a matter of how you word it.

[NavyCanDo]

Glenn Beck made a great suggestion. Somebody needs to order a confederate flag cake, knowing that the bakery would say no, because it offends them.  Then point out the hypocrisy.

[aligncare]

... and order the cake from a black bakery. Heads will explode.

[Paladin]

Seriously, ONC?

Hmm, "Northern Economic Interests", such as using child labor at 2 cents a day for 12 to 14 hours a day OR "Southern Economic Interests", using slave labor for free + room/board, food, clothing, fiddles and banjoes.  Okay, the fiddles and banjoes were just funnin' but it's all a matter of how you word it.

The issue was the cost of imported goods vs indigenous products. The "Northern Economic Interests" were to raise tariffs so as to make its manufactured products financially attractive. The South had little manufacturing and its economic interest was to keep tariffs low as many items it bought and used came from England and were cheaper than those from the northern states. The tariff was designed to achieve the first goal and the South understood clearly what that meant. They didn't call it the "Tariff of Abominations" for nothing.

[Scottftlc]

Glenn Beck made a great suggestion. Somebody needs to order a confederate flag cake, knowing that the bakery would say no, because it offends them.  Then point out the hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is far too complex a concept for the modern American intellect.

[NavyCanDo]

Lowering the flag over a State House, OK I get that, and we can have an open debate whether its time for it to come down.  But the obliteration of any visual image of  “the FLAG” including banning the sale of  Civil War video games?   Really? Really?   Does any of that nonsense heel the hurt in Charleston?   Or does it divide a nation once again?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOozDHL0LA

[olde north church]

Seriously, ONC?

The issue was the cost of imported goods vs indigenous products. The "Northern Economic Interests" were to raise tariffs so as to make its manufactured products financially attractive. The South had little manufacturing and its economic interest was to keep tariffs low as many items it bought and used came from England and were cheaper than those from the northern states. The tariff was designed to achieve the first goal and the South understood clearly what that meant. They didn't call it the "Tariff of Abominations" for nothing.

I understand.  I was a bit of a "Civil War buff" before my medical issues.  I was pointing out the actual cost of labor.  It seems cheap labor is always what the mercantile class is about.  Then and today.