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http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/rand-paul-blames-gop-hawks-for-isil-rise-118315.html?hp=l2_4


Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise

By Nick Gass

5/27/15 7:59 AM EDT

Rand Paul says the Islamic State exists and increased in strength because of the hawkish wing of the Republican Party that provided weapons to the region “indiscriminately.”

The Kentucky senator and Republican presidential candidate blasted members of his own party like South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham for arguing that the terrorist group exists because of people like him.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/rand-paul-blames-gop-hawks-for-isil-rise-118315.html#ixzz3bLY0PK55
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 02:09:54 pm »
It's the gun's fault.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 02:16:37 pm »
It does seem that we are arming the wrong people.  Intentionally?  I could see where people might think that.  You would think the hawks would see that - it makes me wonder what their intentions really are.  On this, I think I agree with Rand Paul.

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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 03:43:33 pm »
Rand Paul is moving more and more toward his dad's position on foreign intervention:  if they're not on our shores attacking us, leave 'em alone.  They'll mind their own business and just confine themselves to the Middle East.

And to think I once backed this fool.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 03:46:36 pm »
it makes me wonder what their intentions really are.

$$$
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 03:50:00 pm by Dexter »
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 03:50:07 pm »

$$$


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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 04:42:30 pm »
Yes Rand, it's not the near barbaric culture, or the radicalized religion or the millennia-old grudges against all things Western or the near total lack of respect for human life that's so entwined in their history that gave rise to Isis.

It's the Reublicans.

Right...
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 04:43:06 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 05:39:42 pm »
Yes Rand, it's not the near barbaric culture, or the radicalized religion or the millennia-old grudges against all things Western or the near total lack of respect for human life that's so entwined in their history that gave rise to Isis.

It's the Reublicans.

Right...

How potent do you think ISIS would be without the military equipment they use?
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 05:54:40 pm »
How potent do you think ISIS would be without the military equipment they use?

How potent would ISIS be if we had left a residual force of 10,000 troops behind? 

They'd be a ratty little bunch of Islamists, sniping and trying to get noticed.

Rand Paul would have done exactly what Obama did:  pull all the troops from Iraq.  He is NOT what this country needs right now and, frankly, never will be.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 06:02:54 pm »
How potent would ISIS be if we had left a residual force of 10,000 troops behind? 

They'd be a ratty little bunch of Islamists, sniping and trying to get noticed.

Rand Paul would have done exactly what Obama did:  pull all the troops from Iraq.  He is NOT what this country needs right now and, frankly, never will be.

Waging war in the Middle East won't protect us from terrorism. Did you know more people in the U.S are killed by accidental falls every year than have ever been killed by terrorists? It's a completely irrational fear and I am sick of soldiers losing their lives over it. Do you think ISIS is capable of invading the United States with an actual army? We have 75 million gun owners and the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You are not in danger of being killed by terrorists; stop letting the media pollute your mind with fear and propaganda.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 06:26:51 pm by Dexter »
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 06:35:40 pm »
Waging war in the Middle East won't protect us from terrorism. Did you know more people in the U.S are killed by accidental falls every year than have ever been killed by terrorists? It's a completely irrational fear and I am sick of soldiers losing their lives over it. Do you think ISIS is capable of invading the United States with an actual army? We have 75 million gun owners and the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You are not in danger of being killed by terrorists; stop letting the media pollute your mind with fear and propaganda.

It's not just about invading the US. It's about a powerful Islamic force in the Middle East that threatens American interests.  If we do nothing about ISIS, we send a message to all the ally nations that we're willing to let them hang.  If we're no longer an ally, what do they do then?

I will not vote for a man whose heritage is one of appeasement and isolationism. That's Ron Paul, and, without a doubt,  his son, too.

Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 06:43:56 pm »
It's not just about invading the US. It's about a powerful Islamic force in the Middle East that threatens American interests.  If we do nothing about ISIS, we send a message to all the ally nations that we're willing to let them hang.  If we're no longer an ally, what do they do then?

I will not vote for a man whose heritage is one of appeasement and isolationism. That's Ron Paul, and, without a doubt,  his son, too.

Are you talking about Israel? I think you're sorely mistaken if you think ISIS would stand a chance in hell against Israel. They have the most advanced military in the region; we get some of OUR military tech from them. Nobody is stupid enough to openly engage Israel, and even if they were that stupid we would immediately help them.  Our assistance is not necessary. We need to leave the Middle East and work on improving our own country.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 07:27:26 pm by Dexter »
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 07:40:51 pm »
Are you talking about Israel? I think you're sorely mistaken if you think ISIS would stand a chance in hell against Israel. They have the most advanced military in the region; we get some of OUR military tech from them. Nobody is stupid enough to openly engage Israel, and even if they were that stupid we would immediately help them.  Our assistance is not necessary. We need to leave the Middle East and work on improving our own country.

I think you're naive, my friend. Let's just leave it at that.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 09:56:55 pm »
This crap started when McCain was taking group photos with Syrian "freedom fighters"....which no doubt were ISIS acolytes.

It was shortly after Assad was accused of using chemical weapons against his own people.

WTF kind of war or months' long military action have you ever seen where there is a COMPLETE American news blackout?

It's great to be a democrat..... :whistle:
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 10:52:22 pm »
On the whole we've no idea what we're doing in the Middle East.  It really doesn't matter how we got to this point, but that's where we are.

It's time for the Middle East nations to step up and form a coalition of the willing against ISIS.

The majority of Americans have no stomach to spill more American blood on that sand trap (myself included) so let's arm our "allies" (including all those fighting ISIS) offer intelligence as we deem helpful, and get the he!! out of the way.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 10:52:53 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline ABX

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2015, 11:00:42 pm »
Paul's daddy is coming through too much.

ISIS has been around a long time, their roots are in the Islamic Baath Party of Syria who attempted to overthrow them in the 50s.

If anything threw fuel on the fire, it was the promotion of the Arab Spring.

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 12:08:18 am »
Rand Paul is moving more and more toward his dad's position on foreign intervention:  if they're not on our shores attacking us, leave 'em alone.  They'll mind their own business and just confine themselves to the Middle East.

And to think I once backed this fool.


I guess we haven't learned our lessons about our Isolationism in the 1930's...
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 12:24:57 am »

I guess we haven't learned our lessons about our Isolationism in the 1930's...

I was thinking the same thing.

Some people said we should leave the Nazis alone too.......
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 12:33:24 am »
I was thinking the same thing.

Some people said we should leave the Nazis alone too.......


Also just give Japan the oil and steel.. They would have left us alone right ;)
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 12:45:31 am »

I guess we haven't learned our lessons about our Isolationism in the 1930's...

Exactly.

Should we not concern ourselves with crime in our cities and townships and instead just secure our homes?

If you do that, sooner or later you'll find yourself barricaded behind your own walls trying by yourself to fight off the barbarians at your gate, wishing you'd beaten them before they surrounded you.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 12:46:13 am by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 12:51:24 am »
Exactly.

Should we not concern ourselves with crime in our cities and townships and instead just secure our homes?

If you do that, sooner or later you'll find yourself barricaded behind your own walls trying by yourself to fight off the barbarians at your gate, wishing you'd beaten them before they surrounded you.


Exactly..


The oceans can no longer protect us.....
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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 01:14:03 am »
Exactly.

Should we not concern ourselves with crime in our cities and townships and instead just secure our homes?

If you do that, sooner or later you'll find yourself barricaded behind your own walls trying by yourself to fight off the barbarians at your gate, wishing you'd beaten them before they surrounded you.

And that, in a nutshell is the problem with Libertarian national defense policy. Rather than maintaining a healthy skepticism toward international involvement, it pretends instead that America has no legitimate interests beyond our borders worthy of military defense.

The primary purpose and most legitimate role of a national government is to protect its citizens against violent force, especially when it is initiated from beyond one's borders.  Else, how is liberty possible?

America did not "create" ISIS by unnecessarily involving itself in the internal affairs of other nations, even if sometimes in history, we have done just that.

ISIS was created by radical Islamists who prevailed upon those we liberated from local tyrants we might have chosen to leave alone, and then cruelly abandoned them to far more dangerous transnational forces who will not ever leave us alone.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 01:23:54 am »
And that, in a nutshell is the problem with Libertarian national defense policy. Rather than maintaining a healthy skepticism toward international involvement, it pretends instead that America has no legitimate interests beyond our borders worthy of military defense.

The primary purpose and most legitimate role of a national government is to protect its citizens against violent force, especially when it is initiated from beyond one's borders.  Else, how is liberty possible?

America did not "create" ISIS by unnecessarily involving itself in the internal affairs of other nations, even if sometimes in history, we have done just that.

ISIS was created by radical Islamists who prevailed upon those we liberated from local tyrants we might have chosen to leave alone, and then cruelly abandoned them to far more dangerous transnational forces who will not ever leave us alone.


Also don't forget about the Pat Buchanan crowd as well..


Here is how we could have stopped ISIS from the beginning:


1. Left US Troops in Iraq
2. Don't say there is a red line and don't do and damn thing about said person crossing the red line
3. Since Libya is falling apart, we should have kept Gadafi in power. He was helping us,


Personally I think the Arab spring caused the mess more than the Invasion of Iraq..
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 02:30:22 am »
Rand Paul is moving more and more toward his dad's position on foreign intervention:  if they're not on our shores attacking us, leave 'em alone.  They'll mind their own business and just confine themselves to the Middle East.

And to think I once backed this fool.
Agreed, he is taking himself out of consideration by me. I remember Harry Browne, 2004 Libertarian candidate for President, who blamed the US for 9/11/2001.

Now Rand Paul blaming his own party for ISIS.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2015, 03:05:20 am »
Between this issue and the Patriot Act, I think Rand Paul is doing a very good job differentiating himself from the rest of the Republican field.  I believe there are far more freedom-loving, war-weary and war-wary Republicans out there than Karl Rove, John McCain and Lindsey Graham would care to admit.  In response to those who are attacking Paul for stating the obvious, I have a simple question:

Has the neocon approach to the Middle East worked?