Author Topic: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay  (Read 8965 times)

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2015, 09:38:43 pm »
Sorry Luis, my mistake.

The Spanish didn't settle Cuba?  Who knew...    :silly:


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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2015, 09:52:44 pm »
Sorry Luis, my mistake.

All BS non-response responses set aside, "Hispanics" in the sense that most people understand that term, are descendants of the people who inhabited the New World prior to colonization. In other words, basically Native Americans who speak Spanish.

Cubans are generally speaking are either black or white and have zero of the blood lines of the original inhabitants of the islands, since the Spaniards killed them all during the colonization process.

My whole problem with the term "Hispanic" is that creates an ethnicity based on nothing more than a common language. If ethnicities were that, then you and someone from Rwanda or Sierra Leone would be of the same ethnicity.

That doesn't work.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 10:00:34 pm »
All BS non-response responses set aside, "Hispanics" in the sense that most people understand that term, are descendants of the people who inhabited the New World prior to colonization. In other words, basically Native Americans who speak Spanish.

"The U.S. Census Bureau defines the ethnonym Hispanic or Latino to refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American (except for Brazil), or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race" and states that Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity."

Aren't private definitions fun?    :silly:



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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 10:45:31 pm »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2015, 11:29:37 pm »
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/240726-bush-defiant-on-immigration-im-right-about-this
Bush defiant on immigration: ‘I’m right about this’

All the candidates know that amnesty of one sort or another is the only viable solution for those already here. They don't address the issue because they know it to be a poison pill with the Party's right wing.

That BS line about "cut the benefits" is just that, BS. They're STILL far better off here without benefits than back in their home countries, with the added bonus of knowing that their children will qualify (according to many) as natural born citizens if born on US soil.

There's no better place anywhere for many of those illegals than here, and they will endure anything because they know that their children will be born American citizens and not in some banana republic backwoods mud brick shack with no future.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2015, 12:35:32 am »
All BS non-response responses set aside, "Hispanics" in the sense that most people understand that term, are descendants of the people who inhabited the New World prior to colonization. In other words, basically Native Americans who speak Spanish.

Cubans are generally speaking are either black or white and have zero of the blood lines of the original inhabitants of the islands, since the Spaniards killed them all during the colonization process.

My whole problem with the term "Hispanic" is that creates an ethnicity based on nothing more than a common language. If ethnicities were that, then you and someone from Rwanda or Sierra Leone would be of the same ethnicity.

That doesn't work.
Since there are no good guidelines for complicated situation, I cling to my possible Hispanic category eligibility.  I am certain of an ancestor with Catalonian naming; both first and last. The only question is did they originate in Spain, or in France (since ethnic and linguistic Catalonia spans both sides of the border).
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2015, 01:29:00 am »
That BS line about "cut the benefits" is just that, BS. They're STILL far better off here without benefits than back in their home countries, with the added bonus of knowing that their children will qualify (according to many) as natural born citizens if born on US soil.

Yeah and Cubans aren't Hispanics even though the U.S. Census Bureau says they are...


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Offline Relic

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2015, 01:55:36 am »
Since there are no good guidelines for complicated situation, I cling to my possible Hispanic category eligibility.  I am certain of an ancestor with Catalonian naming; both first and last. The only question is did they originate in Spain, or in France (since ethnic and linguistic Catalonia spans both sides of the border).

If a person can simply decide what gender they are, I submit that you can claim whatever ethnicity you feel that you are. Given that, I am Hispanic, Black, Native American with a dash of Asian thrown in.

Where do I go to apply for benefits?

Offline Relic

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2015, 01:58:42 am »
Yeah and Cubans aren't Hispanics even though the U.S. Census Bureau says they are...

Shhhhh... don't confuse him with facts.

This is one of those tools to keep people on the defensive. Hispanic... that's not a race... ok, Latino... that's only for men, do you mean Latina...

Same slight of hand that Blacks used with African-American vs. Black.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2015, 02:31:23 am »
Since there are no good guidelines for complicated situation, I cling to my possible Hispanic category eligibility.  I am certain of an ancestor with Catalonian naming; both first and last. The only question is did they originate in Spain, or in France (since ethnic and linguistic Catalonia spans both sides of the border).

"Hispanic" is a fabricated ethnicity.

It was created in 1973 in order for the census to account for all the people who weren't white or black or Asian.

Here's the textbook definition of what constitutes an ethnicity:

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience.

These are Mexican kids:



These are native American kids:



I have no common ancestry, social structure, cultural or national experience with these kids.

Nothing.

So how am I of the same ethnicity?
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2015, 05:24:00 am »
"Hispanic" is a fabricated ethnicity.

I have no common ancestry, social structure, cultural or national experience with these kids.

Nothing.

So how am I of the same ethnicity?
No argument with what you state. The census definitions were probably developed by government sociologists, in order to create a separate grievance category, for the purpose of dispensing benefits.

The category of "Asian" combines people that may look similar, but speak languages that are not alike.

I once had a good client that was a Japanese expatriate business manager. He had worked all over Asia and then the US, where he decided to retire. Highly educated, and quite a nice gentleman. He had served during WWII as an interpreter for American POWs. Loved and respected America and Americans. 

He told me that the Japanese are very racist, viewing themselves as superior.

The tendency for mankind to identify with his own group, to assert its superiority, and to look down on "the others" seems nearly universal.

The influx of Irish in the 1800s was a clear situation of this. Irish were once called the "bleep of Europe." The term Scots-Irish is unique to America, used by colonial (1700s) era Irish immigrants to set themselves apart and above the recent 1800s influx. The colonials immigrants were predominantly Protestant, while the latter were predominantly Catholic.

Yet in fairly short time, the Irish Catholic immigrants overcame discrimination. The same or similar situations have occurred for Scandinavians (dumb Swedes), Polish (dumb Pollock) etc.  Peasant Jewish farmers from Russia and Ukraine, in the Plains states.

Mexican Americans have different histories in Texas vs. California vs. New Mexico etc. My wife's parents came from fairly recent Italian immigrant stock, directly to California from one village in Italy, where she still has first cousins.

From colonial times family and neighbors came from "the same villages" because of letter to back home. The letters said "come on over, we're doing well, and so can you." The reasons were economic opportunity, political and religious freedom.

As virtually all groups soon overcome their initial "disabilities," save the blacks. The "great Society" set them up for the disaster of special treatment, diminished expectations, entitlement, destruction of traditional families etc.

My Latin looking wife took the man we bought our first home from, to small claims court, to force him to comply with terms of the purchase contract. He sat in court and called her a "dirty Mexican," but she won of course.

So race, ethnicity religious "differences" have been present across the globe, and remain strong forces. No sooner than the English colonists arrived in New England, did they start arguing over religion.

These "dissenters" left Europe for freedom of (their own) religions, only to try establishing dominance over other religions here.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2015, 12:53:34 pm »
I still haven't seen anybody answer the important question Luis asked earlier.


So tell me which viable GOP candidate/s is saying "round them all up and deport them."
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2015, 01:00:19 pm »
"Hispanic" is a fabricated ethnicity.

Hispanic is an ethnonym, not an ethnicity.

There is a difference...


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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2015, 01:26:16 pm »
Luis, t_s... thoughtful and instructive posts.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 01:33:30 pm by Lando Lincoln »
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2015, 02:33:55 am »
Question for anyone who cares to answer:

Were there "Hispanics" before the year 1492?

If your answer is "no", then.... where did they come from?

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2015, 03:34:16 am »
Question for anyone who cares to answer:

Were there "Hispanics" before the year 1492?

If your answer is "no", then.... where did they come from?
Read Texas and Mexico, historical novels by James Michener. In one he lays out the hierarchy of the people of Mexico.

Highest status equals born in Spain, next Spanish blood born in Mexico. Next "Mestizos" who are the product of Spanish and Indian parents. Lowest status were (and remain) the Indians.

In today's classifications they are all Hispanic, as are people from all of the other Latin countries in North, Central and South America, except Brazil.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2015, 03:53:08 am »
Question for anyone who cares to answer:

Were there "Hispanics" before the year 1492?

If your answer is "no", then.... where did they come from?

Nixon invented them in 1973.

http://futureuncertain.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-richard-nixon-invented-hispanics.html

Here's the most logical argument that I can make in order to discredit the actual ethnic group known as "Hispanics".

The Tohono O’odham (meaning “Desert People”) inhabited what is today southern Arizona and the northern state of Sonora in Mexico. They were there long before either the U.S. or Mexico existed as nations.

After the Mexican-American War, the new border between the two countries was drawn just North of their traditional lands, but years later, after the Gadsden Purchase, the border was redrawn to cut right through their ancestral lands, making the Tohono O'odham living South of that border Mexicans, and eventually Hispanics, while those who lived North of the divide became what we today call Native Americans, remaining Tohono O'odham.

Now, an ethnicity, according to every major definition of the term is "a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience."

So the Tohono O'odham are the classic example of an ethnicity, but they are in fact, two different ethnicities. One portion of the tribe are Hispanic and the other Native Americans.

I on the other hand, have clear European bloodlines, Spain after all is part of mainland Europe, unlike England, Ireland and Scotland, but as a result of Nixon's creation, I am categorized the same ethnicity as the Southern portion of the Tohono O'odham tribe.
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2015, 01:36:33 pm »
A 'chance to stay' should be no more than a temporary reprieve. That means time to get in line for citizenship while taking no welfare, having a job, and committing no crime above a simple misdemeanor. Seal the border, and if they have made no effort to secure legal status by a certain time, they are subject to deportation. Streamline the process to speed up processing time.

Just dropping the welfare and forcing them to get a job will make many go home. Put the squeeze on them and a large part of the problem will take care of itself. Meanwhile, base immigration on reciprocal agreements. Mexico and many other countries have very strict immigration policies. If theirs is more strict than ours, then we go by theirs, simple as that.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2015, 02:27:29 pm »
A 'chance to stay' should be no more than a temporary reprieve. That means time to get in line for citizenship while taking no welfare, having a job, and committing no crime above a simple misdemeanor. Seal the border, and if they have made no effort to secure legal status by a certain time, they are subject to deportation. Streamline the process to speed up processing time.

Just dropping the welfare and forcing them to get a job will make many go home. Put the squeeze on them and a large part of the problem will take care of itself. Meanwhile, base immigration on reciprocal agreements. Mexico and many other countries have very strict immigration policies. If theirs is more strict than ours, then we go by theirs, simple as that.

What exactly would you have them do to secure legal status?
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2015, 02:31:52 pm »
Get to the back of the line, and do it the old fashioned way. The only thing you give them is some time do while they are here, instead of making them go home to do it. And not alot of time at that.

If they can't get it done, that's their problem. As I said, a temporary reprieve of deportation. Nothing else and no special treatment beyond that.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2015, 02:35:59 pm »
Get to the back of the line, and do it the old fashioned way. The only thing you give them is some time do while they are here, instead of making them go home to do it. And not alot of time at that.

If they can't get it done, that's their problem. As I said, a temporary reprieve of deportation. Nothing else and no special treatment beyond that.

Everything you wanted in your earlier post including this and much more were in the two bills before the Senate in 2007.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2015, 03:16:53 pm »
Everything you wanted in your earlier post including this and much more were in the two bills before the Senate in 2007.

Funny, isn't it?

Jeb is the only candidate taking a clearly stated position on the issue of illegal immigrants already in the country, and for that, he's getting hammered as a "squishy, liberal, moderate", while the candidates dancing, skirting and avoiding the issue altogether are "rock solid conservatives".

Me?

I'd rather make a decision on who to support based on their clearly stated policy positions than on rhetoric and political platitudes that create in my head an unsubstantiated picture of what I think that candidate will do about matters that are important to me.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2015, 03:18:12 pm »
Here's the most logical argument that I can make in order to discredit the actual ethnic group known as "Hispanics".

Again...

Hispanic is an ethnonym, not an ethnicity.

There is a difference...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2015, 03:36:57 pm »
Everything you wanted in your earlier post including this and much more were in the two bills before the Senate in 2007.

Let me guess - those bills died an ugly death, quietly in committee.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 03:37:14 pm by Free Vulcan »
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Jeb Bush: Give 11 Million Immigrants Chance to Stay
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2015, 03:40:09 pm »
Funny, isn't it?

Jeb is the only candidate taking a clearly stated position on the issue of illegal immigrants already in the country, and for that, he's getting hammered as a "squishy, liberal, moderate", while the candidates dancing, skirting and avoiding the issue altogether are "rock solid conservatives".

Me?

I'd rather make a decision on who to support based on their clearly stated policy positions than on rhetoric and political platitudes that create in my head an unsubstantiated picture of what I think that candidate will do about matters that are important to me.

And some of those things he has said are disturbing. It all depends on what he means by legal status.
The Republic is lost.