Rand Paul: It Was a 'Mistake' to Overthrow Saddam Hussein

[truth_seeker]

Also........... more than 58, 000 deaths in Vietnam.  About 4000 in Iraq (before Obama took office).

Hardly "cannon fodder."

The idea that Iraq is so very different, that nobody else can imagine it, defies logic. Okinawa ALONE yielded over 12,500 American dead in just 82 days during WWII. The greatest cause of deaths, was Kamikaze suicide planes crashing into ships standing off the island's coast. 

My Dad was injured on the 45th day of combat in Okinawa and shipped to Honolulu. He almost lost part of his hand. He drove an amphibious tank. He never ever spoke with his children about combat. He only spoke about his pride in being a Marine.

His USMC unit was commanded by an Lt. General named Pedro del Valle, an Hispanic from Puerto Rico, the first Hispanic to reach 3 stars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_del_Valle

I'm convinced Dex served. Perhaps he could shed a bit more light. Just MOS, rank, duty stations, years of service leaves it pretty anonymous.

[Relic]

You're possibly the most hostile person on this forum and you're trying to make me sound like a jerk for calling you ignorant. Give me a break, seriously.

Hostile? Present and accounted for.

[Dexter]

I'm convinced Dex served. Perhaps he could shed a bit more light. Just MOS, rank, duty stations, years of service leaves it pretty anonymous.

If I was lying I could easily lie about all of that. Anybody that doesn't believe me is free to do so. I don't feel like my military service should be in question over my political views.

[truth_seeker]

If I was lying I could easily lie about all of that. Anybody that doesn't believe me is free to do so. I don't feel like my military service should be in question over my political views.

I'll start. US Army Jan. 1969-Dec. 70 trained at Fort Ord, CA and Ft. Benjamin Harrison, IN,  permanent duty station, Heilbronn Germany. MOS Military Personnel Specialist SP5 no combat no hostilities. Co-chair of enlisted study panel of race problems in the Army in Germany. Got out 1 month early to return to college.

Now you.

[musiclady]

The idea that Iraq is so very different, that nobody else can imagine it, defies logic. Okinawa ALONE yielded over 12,500 American dead in just 82 days during WWII. The greatest cause of deaths, was Kamikaze suicide planes crashing into ships standing off the island's coast. 

My Dad was injured on the 45th day of combat in Okinawa and shipped to Honolulu. He almost lost part of his hand. He drove an amphibious tank. He never ever spoke with his children about combat. He only spoke about his pride in being a Marine.

His USMC unit was commanded by an Lt. General named Pedro del Valle, an Hispanic from Puerto Rico, the first Hispanic to reach 3 stars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_del_Valle

I'm convinced Dex served. Perhaps he could shed a bit more light. Just MOS, rank, duty stations, years of service leaves it pretty anonymous.

Your Dad was a true hero (is he still alive?).  And his pride in being a Marine, in spite of the horror he saw and went through is a testament to what our troops SHOULD be.

I just ran across some of my Dad's photos from Germany.  He didn't see any combat (he was a dentist!), but he went through Germany in 1945 and took photos of the results of our bombing in a number of cities there.  I understand the concept of waging a real war as we did in both Japan and Germany, and why many think we didn't do enough destruction in Iraq.

I, however, do NOT understand how anyone can blame US troops for 500,000  Iraqi deaths, while refusing to call terrorists bad.

FWIW, whether or not Dex served is really not really relevant to me (I did say I could be wrong, and I just might be).  What he's saying now IS relevant.  The fact that he's claiming his service gives him a right to damn the entire mission and blame Bush for killing a half a million Iraqis is what bugs me.  And the fact that he doesn't recognize pure EVIL...... especially when he claims to have been there....... is disingenuous at best.

[Dexter]

I'll start. US Army Jan. 1969-Dec. 70 trained at Fort Ord, CA and Ft. Benjamin Harrison, IN,  permanent duty station, Heilbronn Germany. MOS Military Personnel Specialist SP5 no combat no hostilities. Co-chair of enlisted study panel of race problems in the Army in Germany. Got out 1 month early to return to college.

Now you.

I did 5 years from 2007 to 2012. I went to basic at Fort Jackson and then did AIT at Fort Gordon. My MOS was 25F for about 3 months until they told me my MOS was getting phased out and that I would have to start my classes over as a 25N. I was deployed twice, once to Afghanistan and once to Iraq. During my Iraq deployment I was injured and medically discharged. I was an e-4.

[mystery-ak]

I did 5 years from 2007 to 2012. I went to basic at Fort Jackson and then did AIT at Fort Gordon. My MOS was 25F for about 3 months until they told me my MOS was getting phased out and that I would have to start my classes over as a 25N. I was deployed twice, once to Afghanistan and once to Iraq. During my Iraq deployment I was injured and medically discharged. I was an e-4.

My son did basic at Fort Jackson too in 2001....nice, but old base.

[Dexter]

I, however, do NOT understand how anyone can blame US troops for 500,000  Iraqi deaths, while refusing to call terrorists bad.

I can't figure out if your misunderstanding is deliberate or not.

[EC]

Which is why the guys who have been there tend not to talk about their experiences much unless they are in the company of others who have also been there. There really isn't anyone else who can fully understand it.

Truth! 

Even then ....

Two of the people I immensely admire on here were in Vietnam. We sort of get each other, but sometimes we still need a translator! Different place, different time.

[musiclady]

I can't figure out if your misunderstanding is deliberate or not.

I can't figure out if your saying something, then denying you said it is deliberate or not.   (Remember that stuff about the terrorists not being responsible for most of the 500,000 deaths and that they weren't really bad?  And that our troops did it..... though under the orders of the big, bad US government).

I can understand, however, how having a punk like Obama as a CinC (if you served when you said you did.....as you admitted, you could lie about that too)...... would turn you against the American government, the military, the war, and life in general......

No wonder you're a pacifist if you think war is what Obama thinks war is.

(And you're still avoiding saying what you think about Christian's being tortured, raped, crucified and beheaded by those 'not that bad' guys who just believe what their folks taught them to believe, just like we do here).

[Dexter]

(And you're still avoiding saying what you think about Christian's being tortured, raped, crucified and beheaded by those 'not that bad' guys who just believe what their folks taught them to believe, just like we do here).

I care about Christians being killed just as much as I care about Muslims being killed. The suffering of innocent people is a tragedy regardless of their religion. I don't think people are born bad, meaning at some point the bad must have been put in them. Their world view is flawed and that flaw allows them to do what they do. What these people are doing is horrible, and if there was actually a way to stop extremism I would completely support it.

[Bigun]

I care about Christians being killed just as much as I care about Muslims being killed. The suffering of innocent people is a tragedy regardless of their religion. I don't think people are born bad, meaning at some point the bad must have been put in them. Their world view is flawed and that flaw allows them to do what they do. What these people are doing is horrible, and if there was actually a way to stop extremism I would completely support it.

There is DEFINITELY a way to stop it and you definitely do not support it!

[musiclady]

I care about Christians being killed just as much as I care about Muslims being killed. The suffering of innocent people is a tragedy regardless of their religion. I don't think people are born bad, meaning at some point the bad must have been put in them. Their world view is flawed and that flaw allows them to do what they do. What these people are doing is horrible, and if there was actually a way to stop extremism I would completely support it.

I just came back here to say I'm sorry, Dex.

While your accusations and argumentation make me crazy, I have no right to treat you badly.  I'm sure you must really believe the stuff you post, so I'm going to leave you alone.

If need be, I'll put you on ignore, because I really can't deal with the Kumbaya, peacenik, Rodney King things you say, and I'm pretty sure you must be a decent, albeit misguided IMO,  guy who doesn't need a patriotic war-monger like me razzing him.

Peace.

[Dexter]

There is DEFINITELY a way to stop it and you definitely do not support it!

I'm sure I won't convince you otherwise so I won't try.

[Dexter]

I just came back here to say I'm sorry, Dex.

While your accusations and argumentation make me crazy, I have no right to treat you badly.  I'm sure you must really believe the stuff you post, so I'm going to leave you alone.

If need be, I'll put you on ignore, because I really can't deal with the Kumbaya, peacenik, Rodney King things you say, and I'm pretty sure you must be a decent, albeit misguided IMO,  guy who doesn't need a patriotic war-monger like me razzing him.

Peace.

No harm done Musiclady. Hopefully we can coexist without the ignore feature.

[truth_seeker]

I did 5 years from 2007 to 2012. I went to basic at Fort Jackson and then did AIT at Fort Gordon. My MOS was 25F for about 3 months until they told me my MOS was getting phased out and that I would have to start my classes over as a 25N. I was deployed twice, once to Afghanistan and once to Iraq. During my Iraq deployment I was injured and medically discharged. I was an e-4.

Thanks for your service.

[Lando Lincoln]

Thanks for your service.

Yes, thank you to all who served.  I am always grateful and humbled. 
 
For us who reside somewhere along the right side of the political spectrum, and for the future of our country, we had better accept many of our individual differences while uniting in the broader similarities.  This is something the Left is far, far better at than we are.  Dexter, m'lady... I suspect you share many similarities but perhaps from different perspectives.  We each have to draw a line and I hope you find that you are on the same side of it.  As for me, I am glad you are here in this forum. 

It is a new day.

[EC]

Having re-read the thread after actually getting some sleep .... 

Dex, I see the problem.

You were not there when it was working well. The difference between that time and the time you were there is like day and night. We'd stop and talk to the locals while on patrol, and patrols happened constantly, none of this confined to base crap. They were happy to talk back - endlessly curious about our lives compared to theirs. Hell, they usually started the conversations! Totally different to how it was before the withdrawal (or betrayal, as some Kurds call it).

[MACVSOG68]

Yes, thank you to all who served.  I am always grateful and humbled. 
 
For us who reside somewhere along the right side of the political spectrum, and for the future of our country, we had better accept many of our individual differences while uniting in the broader similarities.  This is something the Left is far, far better at than we are.  Dexter, m'lady... I suspect you share many similarities but perhaps from different perspectives.  We each have to draw a line and I hope you find that you are on the same side of it.  As for me, I am glad you are here in this forum. 

It is a new day.

What an outstanding post Lando.   

While I disagree on many levels with Dex's position on this thread, I respect him for presenting a perspective many Americans share, and doing so in a professional way.  And most of the responses to him were on-point and non-personal.  We are at our best not when we are agreeing with each other, but when we are disagreeing and doing so with substance, not vitriol.   

[Lando Lincoln]

MAC... 

[musiclady]

Yes, thank you to all who served.  I am always grateful and humbled. 
 
For us who reside somewhere along the right side of the political spectrum, and for the future of our country, we had better accept many of our individual differences while uniting in the broader similarities.  This is something the Left is far, far better at than we are.  Dexter, m'lady... I suspect you share many similarities but perhaps from different perspectives.  We each have to draw a line and I hope you find that you are on the same side of it.  As for me, I am glad you are here in this forum. 

It is a new day.

While I fondly recall wearing psychedelic bellbottoms and a fringed leather vest 45 years ago, I never fell into the hippie mentality.

Every time Dex posts on anything anti-war related, I hear the sweet, gentle tones of Scott McKenzie warbling....

If you're going to San Francisco
Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair
If you're going to San Francisco
You're gonna meet some gentle people there…

If I don't put him on ignore, I'll just click on this link and feel all warm and fuzzy inside whenever he says he wants to COEXIST.   


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bch1_Ep5M1s

[EC]

What an outstanding post Lando.   

While I disagree on many levels with Dex's position on this thread, I respect him for presenting a perspective many Americans share, and doing so in a professional way.  And most of the responses to him were on-point and non-personal.  We are at our best not when we are agreeing with each other, but when we are disagreeing and doing so with substance, not vitriol.   

Hear, hear! 

[DCPatriot]

Kudos to all here who've conducted themselves in the true spirit of The Briefing Room.

This is another example of how political forums should conduct themselves.   

[Dexter]

While I fondly recall wearing psychedelic bellbottoms and a fringed leather vest 45 years ago, I never fell into the hippie mentality.

Every time Dex posts on anything anti-war related, I hear the sweet, gentle tones of Scott McKenzie warbling....

If you're going to San Francisco
Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair
If you're going to San Francisco
You're gonna meet some gentle people there…

If I don't put him on ignore, I'll just click on this link and feel all warm and fuzzy inside whenever he says he wants to COEXIST.   


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bch1_Ep5M1s

I like how you always spot and point out my ironic word choice. You're a perceptive person. 

[musiclady]

I like how you always spot and point out my ironic word choice. You're a perceptive person. 

I knew you used that word just to tweak me, Dex.

I thought I'd make the most of it.   ^-^


btw, did you listen to the song?  It's sweet and peaceful, just like you wish the world would be................ but isn't.

Cause some people really are evil, and not just misguided........ and somebody needs to stop them from brutalizing innocent people.

Fortunately, the US military is one of the most honorable, if not THE most honorable institutions in the history of the world, and even though some people don't realize it, some times we DO need to intervene and stop the progression of that evil throughout the world.

Isolationism will lead to the death and destruction of many, many innocent people.

That's why I'm not going to vote for Rand Paul in the primary.   He seems too skittish to keep us safe.

And he's dead wrong about Iraq.  NO mistake.