Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law

[Fishrrman]

Mike Pence = R-I-N-O

(and I don't care what anyone thinks about the use of that term!)

[Cyber Liberty]

Mike Pence = R-I-N-O

(and I don't care what anyone thinks about the use of that term!)

Actually, R-I-N-O isn't the dirty word the forum software should be scrubbing.  It's S-O-C-O-N. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

Actually, R-I-N-O isn't the dirty word the forum software should be scrubbing.  It's S-O-C-O-N.

Remember Lawrence v Texas?

Here's how that went down.

In Texas, sodomy used to be illegal, but one day the Texas legislature came to grips with the fact that they LIKED sodomy and made it legal... for themselves. They "fine tuned" the sodomy statutes and targeted a sub-segment of the population that they didn't "like" and whose lifestyle they didn't approve of, keeping it illegal for them.

That sub-segment challenged the law in Court and won. The SCOTUS acted by overturning all anti-homosexual sodomy laws in the US by virtue of their finding.

This law and other laws like this may very well accomplish the same thing because, just like the Texas statutes, is targeted at a sub-segment of the population that is in fact a minority in that population; our system of government is designed to protect the individuals and the minorities from the whims of an omnipotent majority, and in doing so, protecting all of us from the whims and animus of the voters.

Some people argue that business owners have the inherent right to refuse service. Someone in this forum mentioned "no shirt, no shoes, no service" rules, and I agree with that, but if that "no shirt, no shoes, no service" rule is changed to "no shirt, no shoes, no service to Chinese people" then the rule becomes discriminatory in nature.

This Illinois law specifically targets homosexuals. That is blatantly obvious.

If you ask me, business owners should be able to deny service to anyone, for any reason or no reason, at any time, then let the free market judge whether or not that's a good way to conduct business. That however is not the world we live in.

That's the fantasy libertarian world that I'd like to live in.

[Longiron]

Mike Pence = R-I-N-O

(and I don't care what anyone thinks about the use of that term!)

DITTO, the truth sometimes hurt.

[GourmetDan]

Mike Pence = R-I-N-O

(and I don't care what anyone thinks about the use of that term!)

It's interesting that the more liberal members of the forum follow in the true liberal tradition of arguing over terms rather than substance...

[Cyber Liberty]

If you ask me, business owners should be able to deny service to anyone, for any reason or no reason, at any time, then let the free market judge whether or not that's a good way to conduct business. That however is not the world we live in.

That's the fantasy libertarian world that I'd like to live in.

The hope of getting to that world was destroyed with the Civil Rights Act.  Look at this argument going on.  A behavior is now a civil right, on the same par as skin color.  I wonder if that was the intent back in the 60's?

I think the end result of what we're seeing today will be the state simply getting out of the business of marriage, which would be good (Shouldn't be in the first place), and the final destruction of the right of association, which would be a very bad thing. 

If the state can tell you whom you must serve, it can also tell you whom you can't.  We're starting to see that in action, with "Operation Choke Point,"  where banks are being pressured by regulators to cease doing business with gun dealers.

[Luis Gonzalez]

The hope of getting to that world was destroyed with the Civil Rights Act.  Look at this argument going on.  A behavior is now a civil right, on the same par as skin color.  I wonder if that was the intent back in the 60's?

I think the end result of what we're seeing today will be the state simply getting out of the business of marriage, which would be good (Shouldn't be in the first place), and the final destruction of the right of association, which would be a very bad thing. 

If the state can tell you whom you must serve, it can also tell you whom you can't.  We're starting to see that in action, with "Operation Choke Point,"  where banks are being pressured by regulators to cease doing business with gun dealers.

If you want to make the argument that homosexuality is a behavior, then you have to also agree that Christianity is a behavior since it is a choice, not an inherent trait.

On the subject of the government being in the business of marriage, you can blame the Protestants.

“Marriage is a civic matter. It is really not, together with all its circumstances, the business of the church.” - Martin Luther

[truth_seeker]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150401/us-religious-objections-26dff39a1b.html

Arkansas governor urges changes to religious objection bill

Apr 1, 11:58 AM (ET)

By ANDREW DEMILLO
 
(AP) Demonstrators attend a rally on the steps of the Arkansas state Capitol in Little...

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson on Wednesday called for changes to a religious objection measure facing a backlash from businesses and gay rights groups, saying it wasn't intended to sanction discrimination based on sexual orientation.

The Republican governor said he wants changes to the bill lawmakers sent him prohibiting state and local government from infringing upon someone's religious beliefs without a compelling interest. Hutchinson said he wants the Legislature to either recall the bill or pass a follow-up measure to make the proposal more closely mirror a 1993 federal religious freedom law.

Hutchinson had initially supported the bill and on Tuesday his office had said he planned to sign it into law.

The move comes after Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed a similar measure into law last week. Pence this week said he wants follow-up legislation to address concerns that the law allows businesses to discriminate based on sexual orientation.

Similar proposals have been introduced in more than a dozen states, patterned after the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993. Nineteen other states have similar laws on the books.

Echoing the reaction to Indiana's law, Hutchinson has faced pressure from the state's top employers, including retail giant Wal-Mart, which complained that the measure was discriminatory and would stifle economic development. Little Rock's mayor, the city's Chamber of Commerce and Arkansas-based data services company Acxiom all urged the governor to reject the measure in recent days.

The Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights group, has run ads in Silicon Valley targeting technology firms Hutchinson hopes to attract to the state.

----------------------------------

The proponents of these measures apparently lied, claiming they were identical to the 1993 bill, but now we learn that is false.

[Cyber Liberty]

If you want to make the argument that homosexuality is a behavior, then you have to also agree that Christianity is a behavior since it is a choice, not an inherent trait.

OK, I agree with that.  It's a behavior which practice is secured in the First Amendment, but it certainly is a matter of choice, no doubt about it.  I don't know of anybody who has "Catholic blood."  One certainly can't tell somebody's religion by just looking at them.  Besides, the firmest believer will tell you God gave us free will.

On the subject of the government being in the business of marriage, you can blame the Protestants.

“Marriage is a civic matter. It is really not, together with all its circumstances, the business of the church.” - Martin Luther

I don't agree with his contention.  To say it's not the business of the church makes no sense to me.  Marriage is a religious matter, and the state should stick to creating and enforcing contracts, which is what a marriage really is, in practical terms.  License Civil Unions, not Marriages.  I believe OK is entertaining a bill to remove the state from licensing marriages entirely.  This is the direction things are bound to go.  If I were a staunchly Christian baker, I'd stop making all wedding cakes to be free of the risk of being forced to commit a mortal sin by making a cake for a gay couple. 

(If I, Cyber Liberty, were a baker I'd make the cakes, for everybody.  But that's just me, and I know there are people who feel a lot differently.)

[EC]

It's how Israel does it.

Marriage is purely the preserve of religion. The State's only involvement is in the civil contract itself.

[GourmetDan]

On the subject of the government being in the business of marriage, you can blame the Protestants.

“Marriage is a civic matter. It is really not, together with all its circumstances, the business of the church.” - Martin Luther

So can we now start blaming all Catholics for things based on the quotes of any Pope?

[Luis Gonzalez]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150401/us-religious-objections-26dff39a1b.html

Arkansas governor urges changes to religious objection bill

Apr 1, 11:58 AM (ET)

By ANDREW DEMILLO
 
(AP) Demonstrators attend a rally on the steps of the Arkansas state Capitol in Little...

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson on Wednesday called for changes to a religious objection measure facing a backlash from businesses and gay rights groups, saying it wasn't intended to sanction discrimination based on sexual orientation.

The Republican governor said he wants changes to the bill lawmakers sent him prohibiting state and local government from infringing upon someone's religious beliefs without a compelling interest. Hutchinson said he wants the Legislature to either recall the bill or pass a follow-up measure to make the proposal more closely mirror a 1993 federal religious freedom law.

Hutchinson had initially supported the bill and on Tuesday his office had said he planned to sign it into law.

The move comes after Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed a similar measure into law last week. Pence this week said he wants follow-up legislation to address concerns that the law allows businesses to discriminate based on sexual orientation.

Similar proposals have been introduced in more than a dozen states, patterned after the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993. Nineteen other states have similar laws on the books.

Echoing the reaction to Indiana's law, Hutchinson has faced pressure from the state's top employers, including retail giant Wal-Mart, which complained that the measure was discriminatory and would stifle economic development. Little Rock's mayor, the city's Chamber of Commerce and Arkansas-based data services company Acxiom all urged the governor to reject the measure in recent days.

The Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights group, has run ads in Silicon Valley targeting technology firms Hutchinson hopes to attract to the state.

----------------------------------

The proponents of these measures apparently lied, claiming they were identical to the 1993 bill, but now we learn that is false.

IIRC SCOTUS overturned that law.

[Luis Gonzalez]

OK, I agree with that.  It's a behavior which practice is secured in the First Amendment, but it certainly is a matter of choice, no doubt about it.  I don't know of anybody who has "Catholic blood."  One certainly can't tell somebody's religion by just looking at them.  Besides, the firmest believer will tell you God gave us free will.

I don't agree with his contention.  To say it's not the business of the church makes no sense to me.  Marriage is a religious matter, and the state should stick to creating and enforcing contracts, which is what a marriage really is, in practical terms.  License Civil Unions, not Marriages.  I believe OK is entertaining a bill to remove the state from licensing marriages entirely.  This is the direction things are bound to go.  If I were a staunchly Christian baker, I'd stop making all wedding cakes to be free of the risk of being forced to commit a mortal sin by making a cake for a gay couple. 

(If I, Cyber Liberty, were a baker I'd make the cakes, for everybody.  But that's just me, and I know there are people who feel a lot differently.)

If you were a staunchly Catholic baker, would you refuse to bake wedding cakes for people's third and fourth weddings or weddings ceremonies not performed by a priest in a Church?

[musiclady]

On the subject of the government being in the business of marriage, you can blame the Protestants.

“Marriage is a civic matter. It is really not, together with all its circumstances, the business of the church.” - Martin Luther

Martin Luther also said that women were not intelligent enough to learn to read.

Hardly our 'go to guy' on all matters, Luis....   

[aligncare]

It's how Israel does it.

Marriage is purely the preserve of religion. The State's only involvement is in the civil contract itself.

Exactly. A point I was about to make. The matter of children, property, inheritance, taxes, all the legal interactions and social ramifications that come with being part of the modern tribe.

[Cyber Liberty]

So can we now start blaming all Catholics for things based on the quotes of any Pope?

I thought we were already doing that?   

[Cyber Liberty]

If you were a staunchly Catholic baker, would you refuse to bake wedding cakes for people's third and fourth weddings or weddings ceremonies not performed by a priest in a Church?

Yup.  You betcha.  Mortal sin right there.  AFAIK, that is already the case.  I've heard nuns talking to my wife (born and raised Catholic), and you bet they'd refuse to make that cake.  But, the people affected in your scenario don't have a powerful lobby behind them like the Lavender Mafia.

[Charlespg]

As I Said on a earlier post on this subject

   start targeting liberal / gay owned bakeries ,florists ,caterers etc
and demand that they bake something like this


  or this or similar type cakes


demand that they cater a Nazi or KKK themed party, minstrel show or something like that
 when the don't comply sue them under the same public service laws...if the state rules against you
then bring a lawsuit against the state for not equally enforcing the law

Again Use their own laws against them .Go to  a liberal bakery and demand  a Martan Luther Coon cake or a happy Holocaust cake etc
find the personal info and addresses of the gay rights activists and ACLU lawyers ,picket their homes,hand out flyers outside their kids school and their neighborhoods with their pictures and addresses  of the actvists and ACLU denouncing them as anti Christian Bigots  round the clock  phone calls and nasty emails ..all the same tactics used on the  proposition 8 folks ..HARASS THE HELL OUT OF THEM

[Luis Gonzalez]

Martin Luther also said that women were not intelligent enough to learn to read.

Hardly our 'go to guy' on all matters, Luis....   

But he is the guy who began the process of turning marriage from a sacrament to a civil entity.

In other words, Martin Luther is the guy standing at the top of the slide in that "slippery slope" that everyone talks about when it comes to the degradation of the sacrament of marriage.

[Luis Gonzalez]

As I Said on a earlier post on this subject
 Again Use their own laws against them .Go to  a liberal bakery and demand  a Martan Luther Coon cake or a happy Holocaust cake etc
find the personal info and addresses of the gay rights activists and ACLU lawyers ,picket their homes,hand out flyers outside their kids school and their neighborhoods with their pictures and addresses  of the actvists and ACLU denouncing them as anti Christian Bigots  round the clock  phone calls and nasty emails ..all the same tactics used on the  proposition 8 folks ..HARASS THE HELL OUT OF THEM

Have at it Charles.

[GourmetDan]

Again Use their own laws against them .Go to  a liberal bakery and demand  a Martan Luther Coon cake or a happy Holocaust cake etc
find the personal info and addresses of the gay rights activists and ACLU lawyers ,picket their homes,hand out flyers outside their kids school and their neighborhoods with their pictures and addresses  of the actvists and ACLU denouncing them as anti Christian Bigots  round the clock  phone calls and nasty emails ..all the same tactics used on the  proposition 8 folks ..HARASS THE HELL OUT OF THEM

Yep, and the cake I sell them for their 'special day' might not taste very good either...     

[GourmetDan]

But he is the guy who began the process of turning marriage from a sacrament to a civil entity.

In other words, Martin Luther is the guy standing at the top of the slide in that "slippery slope" that everyone talks about when it comes to the degradation of the sacrament of marriage.

Using that logic, the Pope's recent comments about seeking a 'new balance' on gay marriage, abortion and contraception means that he stands at the top of that slippery slope...     

[Cyber Liberty]

But he is the guy who began the process of turning marriage from a sacrament to a civil entity.

In other words, Martin Luther is the guy standing at the top of the slide in that "slippery slope" that everyone talks about when it comes to the degradation of the sacrament of marriage.

I don't think Bastiat would have liked Martin Luther....

[DCPatriot]

It's interesting that the more liberal members of the forum follow in the true liberal tradition of arguing over terms rather than substance...

You don't 'see' Fisherman as a staunch social conservative, but rather a "more liberal member"? 

[Luis Gonzalez]

Using that logic, the Pope's recent comments about seeking a 'new balance' on gay marriage, abortion and contraception means that he stands at the top of that slippery slope...     

I have you on ignore for a good reason but unfortunately I looked in on the thread without signing in to the site and there you were.

Your posts make no sense, and this one is no exception.

It was Martin Luther who began the process of giving to the State what had always belonged to God, and once that was done, once Luther's idea that marriage was not a sacrament but rather something that belonged to the State, then the power to define, or redefine what marriage was and is was transferred to the State, and the matter of what constituted a "marriage" became subject to whichever political winds prevailed at any time instead of dogma.

In essence, Luther (and later John Calvin) managed to take God out of marriage, and once that happened government was able to do with marriage whatsoever it so desired. In the hands of government marriage soon became dissoluble. No-fault divorce and remarriage became the law of the land. Then with marriage no longer being a permanent union, children became disposable objects, which opened up the door to the redefinition of the procreative act in marriage. Contraception and abortion became legal. The sexual revolution was in full swing. Then once children and conjugal acts between man and woman were no longer thought as being connected to marriage, marriage was then redefined as something other than one man and one woman.

I have a lot of issues with this Pope, but there was only one individual standing at the top of that slide pushing marriage down that slippery slope.

Martin Luther.