Author Topic: GOP Leadership Plotting to Pass Amnesty in August, May Put AZ, TX in Play for Dems  (Read 10287 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Personally I don't believe MOST Americans want anything remotely like amnesty. What they do Want is that the laws (all of them) be faithfully executed!

If republicans are loosing the issue it's because they have failed to make a case! This isn't about right and wrong it's about what the high dollar donors want and to HELL with everything and everyone else!

Bigun.

You contradict yourself.

Your constant complaint is that the people in the government don't observe the Constitution or enforce the laws, and at the same time you say that most Americans want elected officials who will faithfully execute all laws.

Most Americans voting for people who don't observe the Constitution or faithfully execute the laws is the reason why those people are in government to begin with.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Here... let me show you a cross sampling of "most Americans".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za4ZZN0SekE
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Offline Bigun

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Bigun.

You contradict yourself.

Your constant complaint is that the people in the government don't observe the Constitution or enforce the laws, and at the same time you say that most Americans want elected officials who will faithfully execute all laws.

Most Americans voting for people who don't observe the Constitution or faithfully execute the laws is the reason why those people are in government to begin with.

And perhaps that is because the people themselves have, by design,  not been taught anything about the Constitution! Hell, They don't even teach it in LAW school these days!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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I'm still trying to understand what the Constitution and the oath of office have to do with immigration reform.  :pondering:
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I'm still trying to understand what the Constitution and the oath of office have to do with immigration reform.  :pondering:

It's a mystery.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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I'm still trying to understand what the Constitution and the oath of office have to do with immigration reform.  :pondering:

Here's a clue!  "take care that the LAWS are faithfully executed"
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I'm still trying to understand what the Constitution and the oath of office have to do with immigration reform.  :pondering:

The word "immigration" is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. The Constitution gives Congress the power "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization" (Article I, Section 8, Clause iv), and "naturalization" is  the manner by which an immigrant already in the country can become a citizen.

That means that in the strictest sense of Constitutional law, being that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" (Tenth Amendment), it could be easily argued that power to regulate immigration belongs to the States, and the power to set the rules and methods of how those immigrants would become citizens belongs to the United States.

That was changed, defined or redefined (pick your own word) by way of a series of SCOTUS decisions which all basically argued that allowing the States to decide who came in and who got the boot, and the Feds who could become a citizen would leave us with a hot mess. So, the Feds took over all phases of immigration.

Eventually, the issue of immigration became a inherent sovereign power of the United States.

Having said all that, while the Constitution charges the Executive with enforcing all laws, the Constitution and case law grants Congress the ability to create or "reform" immigration law at will.

The Oath of Office has absolutely nothing to do with the Congressional power to enact or reform immigration laws, and even less to do with the enforcement of those laws, since Congress lacks the Constitutional power to enforce existing laws.
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Offline Bigun

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The word "immigration" is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. The Constitution gives Congress the power "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization" (Article I, Section 8, Clause iv), and "naturalization" is  the manner by which an immigrant already in the country can become a citizen.

That means that in the strictest sense of Constitutional law, being that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" (Tenth Amendment), it could be easily argued that power to regulate immigration belongs to the States, and the power to set the rules and methods of how those immigrants would become citizens belongs to the United States.

That was changed, defined or redefined (pick your own word) by way of a series of SCOTUS decisions which all basically argued that allowing the States to decide who came in and who got the boot, and the Feds who could become a citizen would leave us with a hot mess. So, the Feds took over all phases of immigration.

Eventually, the issue of immigration became a inherent sovereign power of the United States.

Having said all that, while the Constitution charges the Executive with enforcing all laws, the Constitution and case law grants Congress the ability to create or "reform" immigration law at will.

The Oath of Office has absolutely nothing to do with the Congressional power to enact or reform immigration laws, and even less to do with the enforcement of those laws, since Congress lacks the Constitutional power to enforce existing laws.

That's right Luis and since the executive REFUSES to faithfully execute the laws and the Congress lacks the WILL to hold him accountable for that passing any new law is an absolutely futile gesture! A total waste of time and effort IMHO!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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That's right Luis and since the executive REFUSES to faithfully execute the laws and the Congress lacks the WILL to hold him accountable for that passing any new law is an absolutely futile gesture! A total waste of time and effort IMHO!

The will?

The votes Bigun.

A President can't be impeached when his Party hold the Senate.

The truly futile thing is impeachment.

That goes right back of the whole "government we deserve" thing.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:55:18 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Bigun

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The will?

The votes Bigun.

A President can't be impeached when his Party hold the Senate.

The truly futile thing is impeachment.

That goes right back of the whole "government we deserve" thing.

As I read the Constitution I see that it is the province of the House alone to do any impeaching and the province of the Senate to do the trying.  Just because one won't do something does not relieve the other from doing it duty Luis!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:59:18 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EC

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That's right Luis and since the executive REFUSES to faithfully execute the laws and the Congress lacks the WILL to hold him accountable for that passing any new law is an absolutely futile gesture! A total waste of time and effort IMHO!

Why new laws? The existing ones are explicit. Enforce them. Hell - shake the taxpayer money tree and make a specific immigrant court. No right of appeal and their decisions are final. They look at the circumstances and decide - stay or deportation. Get deported and come up a second time? Execution.
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Offline Bigun

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Why new laws? The existing ones are explicit. Enforce them. Hell - shake the taxpayer money tree and make a specific immigrant court. No right of appeal and their decisions are final. They look at the circumstances and decide - stay or deportation. Get deported and come up a second time? Execution.

Now you are beginning to get the picture! There isn't anything wrong with our CURRENT immigration laws except for the fact that some folks don't like them!  All they need is enforcing!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline mystery-ak

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Now you are beginning to get the picture! There isn't anything wrong with our CURRENT immigration laws except for the fact that some folks don't like them!  All they need is enforcing!

 :amen:
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Offline katzenjammer

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Now you are beginning to get the picture! There isn't anything wrong with our CURRENT immigration laws except for the fact that some folks don't like them!  All they need is enforcing!

Precisely.

Offline DCPatriot

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Why new laws? The existing ones are explicit. Enforce them. Hell - shake the taxpayer money tree and make a specific immigrant court. No right of appeal and their decisions are final. They look at the circumstances and decide - stay or deportation. Get deported and come up a second time? Execution.


Damn you, EC...  poking the bear again!   LOL!   

'Shirley'....you can't be serious regarding "Execution!". 
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Offline EC

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Damn you, EC...  poking the bear again!   LOL!   

'Shirley'....you can't be serious regarding "Execution!".

 :tongue2:

It does have the advantage of discouraging repeat offenders.
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Offline DCPatriot

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:tongue2:

It does have the advantage of discouraging repeat offenders.

See?  I 'know' you.

What is more unnerving here is that nobody else questioned or referred to it. 
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Bigun

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See?  I 'know' you.

What is more unnerving here is that nobody else questioned or referred to it.

Or can it be that others know him as well and didn't take that part seriously.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline massadvj

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Or can it be that others know him as well and didn't take that part seriously.

EC, the exquisite raconteur, is indeed well known to us all. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 02:28:30 pm by massadvj »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Our survival as a culture depends on immigration from South of our border.

There, I've just poked the biggest bear.

Once everyone is done hyperventilating, I'll return to make my case. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 02:41:17 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline MACVSOG68

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Now you are beginning to get the picture! There isn't anything wrong with our CURRENT immigration laws except for the fact that some folks don't like them!  All they need is enforcing!

The current laws aren't as great as one would think.  I'd like to see a lot better border security.  I want to see better id cards that can't so easily be forged (biometrics?).  Current laws give the executive a lot of discretion over the legalization process and Obama is using it.  I want to see a law that until border governors give a green light on the security of their borders, no legalizations can take place. 

I want to see an end to chain migration and the diversity lottery.  I want to see an improved standard for the skills and education of those coming into the Country.  I want to see the standards tightened on those applying for asylum.  I want to see those who are going to come under the legalization process to pay fines, wait in line, have no serious criminal history, be employed, not be on welfare.  I want to see that those who don't apply in a reasonable time be sought out, found and deported.

I want to see the laws encourage state governors to participate with the federal government in enforcement of the laws rather than what has been happening these past few years.

And on my side of the aisle I want to see the debate actually center on the specifics of the proposals rather than a broad-brush attack on an entire ethnic population as a means of condemning the proposal.
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Offline Bigun

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Our survival as a culture depends on immigration from South of our border.

There, I've just poked the biggest bear.

Once everyone is done hyperventilating, I'll return to make my case.

I've seen the data Luis but it has to happen lawfully! No one that I know is opposed to LEGAL immigration!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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The current laws aren't as great as one would think.  I'd like to see a lot better border security.  I want to see better id cards that can't so easily be forged (biometrics?).  Current laws give the executive a lot of discretion over the legalization process and Obama is using it.  I want to see a law that until border governors give a green light on the security of their borders, no legalizations can take place. 

I want to see an end to chain migration and the diversity lottery.  I want to see an improved standard for the skills and education of those coming into the Country.  I want to see the standards tightened on those applying for asylum.  I want to see those who are going to come under the legalization process to pay fines, wait in line, have no serious criminal history, be employed, not be on welfare.  I want to see that those who don't apply in a reasonable time be sought out, found and deported.

I want to see the laws encourage state governors to participate with the federal government in enforcement of the laws rather than what has been happening these past few years.

And on my side of the aisle I want to see the debate actually center on the specifics of the proposals rather than a broad-brush attack on an entire ethnic population as a means of condemning the proposal.

Lot's of good ideas there but until we have a government the we can trust to faithfully execute the law I'm frankly not interested in discussing them. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DCPatriot

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Our survival as a culture depends on immigration from South of our border.

There, I've just poked the biggest bear.

Once everyone is done hyperventilating, I'll return to make my case.

My 'guess' is that we're not reproducing above the replacement rate, which is understandable in an "I want it NOW!" culture due to economic policies....abortion...and feminism.

Also, immigrants to the South are Christian...if anything, and our culture is Christian-based.

Also, more women will appear that look like Salma Hayek...once the bloodlines intermingle.   :laugh:


....which would help address the birth rate issue. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 03:04:05 pm by DCPatriot »
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"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

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My 'guess' is that we're not reproducing above the replacement rate, which is understandable in an "I want it NOW!" culture due to economic policies....abortion...and feminism.

Also, immigrants to the South are Christian...if anything, and our culture is Christian-based.

Also, more women will appear that look like Salma Hayek...once the bloodlines intermingle.   :laugh:


....which would help address the birth rate issue.

Now that's how to cut to the chase!  :beer:
It's the Supreme Court nominations!