Author Topic: GOP Leadership Plotting to Pass Amnesty in August, May Put AZ, TX in Play for Dems  (Read 10275 times)

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Online Bigun

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You won't get any arguments from Democrats.  They love the status quo.

And why wouldn't they? After all they currently have a President, Attorney General, and Majority leader of the senate who just ignore the law and do whatever the hell they want while using every department of the federal government for political purposes and nothing is being done about it. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MBB1984

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We frequently attack exit polling when it challenges our position.  And I agree that the Hispanic vote for Republicans has decreased year after year since 2004.  Most of that came after the debates on the 2007 legislation, in which very public arguments were made that scared hell out of people about Hispanics in general, not the specifics of the legislation.  And Republicans did nothing to counter those arguments made in their name.  If I were a Mexican voter and I read arguments about losing American tradition and how my kind is prone to this and that, I wouldn't vote GOP either.

How to regain the Hispanic vote, which by the way isn't as entrenched in one party as the black vote, is another debate.  But a fair comprehensive immigration bill that includes border security and better enforcement as a starter would be a good beginning.

A fair comprehensive immigration bill is an oxymoron.  A fair bill would include border security, enforcement and yes, deportations to comply with current law.  This would benefit American citizens. Amnesty only helps the illegal invaders and the corporate interests that thrive off slave labor wages.   Do you really think that uneducated, impoverished individuals illegally coming to America will be attracted to GOP principles?  They may initially come to achieve a higher wage, but will soon realize that government entitlements such as SSI, Medicaid, Obamacare, Child tax credits, HUD housing and food stamps are much more enticing than "work."    By supporting comprehensive immigration you are damning the GOP and your country to a Marxist hell. 

Offline MACVSOG68

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And why wouldn't they? After all they currently have a President, Attorney General, and Majority leader of the senate who just ignore the law and do whatever the hell they want while using every department of the federal government for political purposes and nothing is being done about it.

Well...because the GOP is thwarting the will of most Americans, and in so doing, some on the far right are using racial demagoguery to do so.  I'd say it's more than just the current administration.  In any case, Republicans are losing the issue.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline MACVSOG68

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A fair comprehensive immigration bill is an oxymoron.  A fair bill would include border security, enforcement and yes, deportations to comply with current law.  This would benefit American citizens. Amnesty only helps the illegal invaders and the corporate interests that thrive off slave labor wages.   Do you really think that uneducated, impoverished individuals illegally coming to America will be attracted to GOP principles?  They may initially come to achieve a higher wage, but will soon realize that government entitlements such as SSI, Medicaid, Obamacare, Child tax credits, HUD housing and food stamps are much more enticing than "work."    By supporting comprehensive immigration you are damning the GOP and your country to a Marxist hell.

So as I understand it, a fair bill would include only issues that Republicans from the right wing want and exclude what most Americans want?  Some seem to think that the Hispanic population is as vulnerable to Democrat giveaways as the black population.  That is the farthest thing from reality.  What percentage of the black voters have supported Republicans in the past 50 years?  How about Latino?  Any reasonable reading of the voting patters show that Hispanics do actually think for themselves.

There's a real good reason why the Dems want this issue to fester, and why the GOP leadership doesn't.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Online Bigun

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Well...because the GOP is thwarting the will of most Americans, and in so doing, some on the far right are using racial demagoguery to do so.  I'd say it's more than just the current administration.  In any case, Republicans are losing the issue.

Personally I don't believe MOST Americans want anything remotely like amnesty. What they do Want is that the laws (all of them) be faithfully executed!

If republicans are loosing the issue it's because they have failed to make a case! This isn't about right and wrong it's about what the high dollar donors want and to HELL with everything and everyone else!
 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EC

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Personally I don't believe MOST Americans want anything remotely like amnesty. What they do Want is that the laws (all of them) be faithfully executed!

If republicans are loosing the issue it's because they have failed to make a case! This isn't about right and wrong it's about what the high dollar donors want and to HELL with everything and everyone else!

May I gently disagree, brother?

While most Americans want the laws duly enforced, there are two small problems. Firstly - no one wants to pay for it. Boots on the ground cost, you know that very well. Secondly - well - Americans as a whole are wonderful and generous people. A single guy who has slid the boarder to work illegally is one thing. Same guy has kids with him and the (rather admirable) compassion kicks in.
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Online Bigun

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May I gently disagree, brother?

While most Americans want the laws duly enforced, there are two small problems. Firstly - no one wants to pay for it. Boots on the ground cost, you know that very well. Secondly - well - Americans as a whole are wonderful and generous people. A single guy who has slid the boarder to work illegally is one thing. Same guy has kids with him and the (rather admirable) compassion kicks in.

I'm sorry but I fail to find that out listed anywhere in our Constitution.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Personally I don't believe MOST Americans want anything remotely like amnesty. What they do Want is that the laws (all of them) be faithfully executed!

If republicans are loosing the issue it's because they have failed to make a case! This isn't about right and wrong it's about what the high dollar donors want and to HELL with everything and everyone else!

Seriously my friend.  Would you like me to link you to almost every poll over the past 8 years on the issue that would disagree with you?  But yes I agree, Republicans have failed to make a case, most likely because they are in a civil war over it.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline EC

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I'm sorry but I fail to find that out listed anywhere in our Constitution.

There is another document besides the Constitution that lives on in most American's hearts. A rather tall lady cradles it, lovingly, in her arm in New York harbor. You know - I admire that more.

The Constitution is the work of a bunch of geniuses and is a once in a millennia thing. Distilling the political theory of 3000 years down to plain English that absolutely anyone can understand (except Liberals, apparently). What Lady Liberty holds, though - that is the soul of America.

"We don't care if you are different. Come and enjoy freedom."

One document is the heart. The other is the soul. Makes for a very neat and admirable people!  :laugh:

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Offline katzenjammer

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I'm sorry but I fail to find that out listed anywhere in our Constitution.

That doesn't seem to bother many, they're more concerned about the results of "polls!"  smh
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 12:19:10 am by katzenjammer »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I'm sorry but I fail to find that out listed anywhere in our Constitution.

Can't find the Air Force in there either, but it doesn't make it less real.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Can't find the Air Force in there either, but it doesn't make it less real.

We can make it the Army Air Corp again if that would help you out!

Either we have a Constitution or we don't!

It really is that simple!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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That doesn't seem to bother many, they're more concerned about the results of "polls!"  smh

Yes! That IS interesting isn't it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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That doesn't seem to bother many, they're more concerned about the results of "polls!"  smh

Yeah, who cares what the American people want? Ain't  none of their affair anyway...
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Online Bigun

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Seriously my friend.  Would you like me to link you to almost every poll over the past 8 years on the issue that would disagree with you?  But yes I agree, Republicans have failed to make a case, most likely because they are in a civil war over it.

No thank you! Most of those polls aren't worth the paper they are printed on and you are not talking to someone who does not know how they can be and are manipulated.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Yeah, who cares what the American people want? Ain't  none of their affair anyway...

The only poll I give a hoot in hell about is the one that occurs this coming November!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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Yeah, who cares what the American people want? Ain't  none of their affair anyway...

You're barking up the wrong tree if you think the Constitution and first principles are up for modification based on polling results, or elections for that matter.  Can you really be serious???

Offline MACVSOG68

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You're barking up the wrong tree if you think the Constitution and first principles are up for modification based on polling results, or elections for that matter.  Can you really be serious???

Not sure what the Constitution has to do with immigration policy.  But yeah, I'm serious.  If my political representative didn't give a hoot what I thought, I'd vote to replace him.  Why aren't the interests of the American people of some relevance?
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Online Bigun

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Not sure what the Constitution has to do with immigration policy.  But yeah, I'm serious.  If my political representative didn't give a hoot what I thought, I'd vote to replace him.  Why aren't the interests of the American people of some relevance?

I want my rep to listen to me as well and the thing I keep telling him is to honor the oath of office he takes every two years! It goes like this:

“I, (name of Member), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God”
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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In most cases, they make contributions under a phony or borrowed social security number.  All of that needs to be erased off the books.

As for citizenship, given the high hurdle, we are probably not talking about a large number of people who will do it, but in principle I oppose the "path to citizenship."  People do have the right to sell their labor, and I do not fault anyone who comes to this country for that reason.  We should encourage free trade in all of its forms.  But citizenship -- given our neo-socialist, managerial state -- is a whole other animal.

In summary, it's not the amnesty that bothers me, but the insistence that as a condition of amnesty we increase the number of Democrats on the voter rolls. 

Query:  if they pay social security taxes under someone else's social security number, is it fair if that person gets credit for those taxes?

Offline Fishrrman

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Relic wrote above:
[[ I am a man with no party. No representation. The current Republican leadership wants to "get theirs" while they can. They'll pass this, then fade off to irrelevance as they are voted out of office. But, they'll have an enormous bank account to help soothe them. ]]

And that's exactly why I'm not voting for any Quisling "Republicans" any longer.
(Aside, this doesn't mean I'm going to vote for the 'rats -- never, NEVER, N-E-V-E-R)

I voted for Bush.
I voted for McCain.
I voted for Romney.

But support losers like Jeb, Marco, Christie?
Are you serious?
Please -- find someone else to buy that sales pitch. It ain't gonna be me.

Offline Fishrrman

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alicewonders wrote:
[[ I think most people realize that mass deportation is unfeasible. I do prefer Rand Paul's idea of issueing work visas - with the provision that they aren't given voting rights, etc.  They need to get rid of the anchor baby privilege though.  These workers should be employed above-board, trackable and paying taxes like the rest of us.  ]]

Alice, can't you see? If we do this, if we pass some kind of legislation -- ANY kind of legislation -- that "normalizes" the illegals already here (even if they don't get "citizenship") -- that all it will do will be to encourage MILLIONS MORE to come?

There's a saying:
Anytime you subsidize something, you get MORE of it.

If we "excuse the presence" of those who have sneaked into the country in the last twenty years, what does that say to EVERY person who might be willing to give it a try in the future?

I am first of all, a realist.
I realize it's a pipedream to think of "sending all the illegals home". That's not going to be done.

BUT -- anything we do to "normalize", "legalize", or excuse them will do nothing but bring MORE of them. What does that portend for the future of America, for our culture?

My solution is simple:
Do nothing.
That's right, NOTHING.

They are here. Let them continue to work, and have Social Security, etc. taken out of their pay. If they work long enough to qualify, let them even -collect- SS benefits, etc.

But there must be a PRICE for entering America illegally.
The illegals who have come here must PAY that price.

The price must be this:
They can NEVER become U.S. citizens. They can never vote.
They must ALWAYS be condemned (I chose that word carefully) to something of a "second class existence", something intentionally "below" what a citizen like you or I enjoy.
That must be the price.

The anchor babies?
That's not going to be changed, short of a "convention of the states".
It is what it is by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.
We'll have to live with that -- although I wish it -could- be changed.

So -- the children will be citizens.
But the parents who broke the law must NEVER be citizens, or even "legal".

If we aren't prepared to stand firm about this, we are going to lose the country.

Suggestion:
Even though you don't need to read Jean Raspail's "The Camp of the Saints", take a few minutes to read the wiki about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints

If we "reform" immigration so that anyone can come here without penalty and without fear, that is where we're headed...

Oceander

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The conservative stance on immigration:





La-la-la, I can't hear you!

Online Bigun

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So conservatives should just shut up and agree with you?

Well that ain't going to happen! Not if I can prevent it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline massadvj

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Query:  if they pay social security taxes under someone else's social security number, is it fair if that person gets credit for those taxes?

Not if it is discovered.  A lot of times it is dead people or just made up numbers.  My point is it needs to be erased as a long-term liability of the government, at least to the degree that it might be possible.