Author Topic: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch  (Read 8747 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2014, 08:52:21 AM »
I respectfully disagree.  This may be exactly what's necessary to cut the dead wood from the legislatures.  People have long memories after situations like this.  It hangs with you like bile.

You're going to cut "dead wood from the legislatures" based on the behavior of an individual who doesn't recognize the supremacy of either his State's or his nation's Constitution, who will not abide by laws and Court mandates that have been in effect for decades and who claims title to territories whose ownership has been settled for 166 years?

The Constitution of Nevada states that:

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ORDINANCE

      Slavery prohibited; freedom of religious worship; disclaimer of public lands. [Effective until the date Congress consents to amendment or a legal determination is made that such consent is not necessary.]In obedience to the requirements of an act of the Congress of the United States, approved March twenty-first, A.D. eighteen hundred and sixty-four, to enable the people of Nevada to form a constitution and state government, this convention, elected and convened in obedience to said enabling act, do ordain as follows, and this ordinance shall be irrevocable, without the consent of the United States and the people of the State of Nevada:
      First. That there shall be in this state neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, otherwise than in the punishment for crimes, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.
      Second. That perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of said state shall ever be molested, in person or property, on account of his or her mode of religious worship.
      Third. That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States

Bundy refuses to recognize that as law.

Article IV, Section 3 of he Constitution of the United States says that:

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The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States;

Bundy refuses to recognize the power of the Federal government over the land that the Federal government owns.

So when you do cut all that dead wood, and you do set new laws in place and when that next individual comes along and decides that he doesn't want to abide by your new laws and that he will not respect either Constitutions or Court mandates, what will you do?
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline evadR

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2014, 08:56:00 AM »
This is actually sad.

There is such built up animus for the government, so much distrust and such pent up frustration that people are willing to believe any story that paints the government in a bad light, even when the facts do not support the memes. As the news circulate through the blogosphere, the story begins to take a life of its own, and suddenly we have protected turtles, Harry Reid and the Chinese and facts no longer matter.

I think that reason stops at a certain point, and people don't care whether Bundy is right or wrong. They just want to fight the government.


It's dangerous times that we live in.
So true.
It defines my feelings pretty well with the exception that I don't want to fight my government, I just want it to return to a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 08:57:42 AM by evadR »
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Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2014, 09:07:28 AM »
You're going to cut "dead wood from the legislatures" based on the behavior of an individual who doesn't recognize the supremacy of either his State's or his nation's Constitution, who will not abide by laws and Court mandates that have been in effect for decades and who claims title to territories whose ownership has been settled for 166 years?

The Constitution of Nevada states that:

Bundy refuses to recognize that as law.

Article IV, Section 3 of he Constitution of the United States says that:

Bundy refuses to recognize the power of the Federal government over the land that the Federal government owns.

So when you do cut all that dead wood, and you do set new laws in place and when that next individual comes along and decides that he doesn't want to abide by your new laws and that he will not respect either Constitutions or Court mandates, what will you do?

I don't mean this man or his situation specifically.  It's like an ear worm.  It reminds them of their trouble at DMV, a snotty receptionist at the town hall or their cousin Edwin's audit.  It's like a hemorrhoidal flare up.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline oldno7

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2014, 09:13:30 AM »
 What is actually sad is that an agency of un elected officials can write laws willy nilly AND  courts  uphold said laws!

Believing this agency(blm) does this for the benefit of We The People, is naive.

Knowing who the blm answers to is paramount.

blm---Dept of Interior--Secretary of the interior(Presidents Cabinet)--President

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We all know that no administration would use any agency to their political advantage....



Offline oldno7

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #154 on: April 14, 2014, 09:43:23 AM »
 On a related subject---

Who would ever think that Taxation Without Representation, might cause a war??

Offline happyg

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2014, 09:44:36 AM »
What is actually sad is that an agency of un elected officials can write laws willy nilly AND  courts  uphold said laws!

Believing this agency(blm) does this for the benefit of We The People, is naive.

Knowing who the blm answers to is paramount.

blm---Dept of Interior--Secretary of the interior(Presidents Cabinet)--President

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We all know that no administration would use any agency to their political advantage....

The BLM reminds me of the EPA.  What is the difference?

Offline EC

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2014, 09:49:26 AM »
The BLM reminds me of the EPA.  What is the difference?

The BLM originally had a decent purpose.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2014, 09:53:15 AM »
The BLM reminds me of the EPA.  What is the difference?

The difference is Article IV, Section 3 of he Constitution of the United States.

I've said that we need a new Constitution, but everyone disagrees.

We need a new Constitution correcting all the loopholes and firmly restricting the powers of the Executive. We need to set irrevocable term limits in place for every position in the Federal government, and we need to make  the action of even trying to change that BY ANYONE IN ANY BRANCH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (Courts included) reason for immediate impeachment if not treason.

That's just a start.
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2014, 09:20:57 PM »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #159 on: April 15, 2014, 12:04:30 AM »
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 12:05:43 AM by Luis Gonzalez »
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline pjohns

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #160 on: April 15, 2014, 02:10:27 AM »
I would imagine that the feds simply did not want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, to serve as a rallying cry against a heavy-handed government; so they simply backed off (and backed down)...

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #161 on: April 15, 2014, 05:45:23 AM »
I would imagine that the feds simply did not want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, to serve as a rallying cry against a heavy-handed government; so they simply backed off (and backed down)...

Backed off?  More likely realized there are many ways to cook a chicken.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #162 on: April 15, 2014, 08:28:08 AM »
I would imagine that the feds simply did not want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, to serve as a rallying cry against a heavy-handed government; so they simply backed off (and backed down)...

Being in violation of two separate Court orders, Cliven Bundy may be about to find himself in jail.
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Oceander

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #163 on: April 15, 2014, 08:31:03 AM »
On a related subject---

Who would ever think that Taxation Without Representation, might cause a war??

Cliven Bundy has had more than his fair share of representation and more than his fair share of due process.  If you wish to analogize to the American Revolution, then Cliven Bundy is firmly in the British camp, not the American camp.

Oceander

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #164 on: April 15, 2014, 08:36:47 AM »
Let's say that we do that.

Let's say that we spill the blood, burn the cities, raze the fields and do all that it will take to fight that open fight.

Let's say that we win, and that we set things right.

That we set the Constitution in place, and that we set our institutions rights. The Courts, Congress, everything.

Then we get a man who will not abide by established laws (Both the Constitutions of the State of Nevada and the US Constitution clearly establish who the pieces of land in question belong to) will not recognize treaties made by the United States under its Constitutional powers set in place via Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of said Constitution  (Treaty of Hidalgo) will not recognize the Supremacy of his own State's Constitution when it clearly states who the land belongs to (Nevada Constitution of 1864), and who has the constitutional authority to manage them (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 U.S. Constitution), and that when that man takes his dispute to the Courts, the Courts find that he is wrong, and that he must abide by the laws and institutions that we shed blood to set in place, yet this man ignores every legal order issued by the Courts, refuses to abide by all authority, and threatens to do violence to anyone who tries to execute the Court orders.

Would you let that stand?

What good would your Constitution be then? 

Bundy is wrong.

He is dead wrong.

The Founders themselves put down Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion because they understood that once founded, the nation could not survive rebellions stemming from anti-government sentiment justified or not justified.

If you all really want to get behind someone, look up E. Wayne Hage and show his family some support.

Not this Bundy guy.


Shay's Rebellion is actually a very apt analogy

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #165 on: April 15, 2014, 09:51:22 AM »
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #166 on: April 15, 2014, 10:08:38 AM »
Cliven Bundy has had more than his fair share of representation and more than his fair share of due process.  If you wish to analogize to the American Revolution, then Cliven Bundy is firmly in the British camp, not the American camp.

You don't leave fish to find fish.  This isn't a perfect situation but it is a point to rally.  Based upon OVERALL reaction against the feds, it's a start and a good one at that.  The fuse doesn't go in search of the match!
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2014, 10:10:55 AM »
You don't leave fish to find fish.  This isn't a perfect situation but it is a point to rally.  Based upon OVERALL reaction against the feds, it's a start and a good one at that.  The fuse doesn't go in search of the match!

 :beer:
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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #168 on: April 15, 2014, 10:13:02 AM »
You don't leave fish to find fish.  This isn't a perfect situation but it is a point to rally.  Based upon OVERALL reaction against the feds, it's a start and a good one at that.  The fuse doesn't go in search of the match!

as luis has pointed out, geo. washington would disagree with you.  shay's rebellion led to greater centralization and empowerment of the federal government; Bundy's rebellion - if that is what it comes to - will do the same.  That's a pretty stupid price to pay for defending a scofflaw.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2014, 10:20:08 AM »

That's a pretty stupid price to pay for defending a scofflaw.


You misspelled "turtle".



"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #170 on: April 15, 2014, 10:48:09 AM »
as luis has pointed out, geo. washington would disagree with you.  shay's rebellion led to greater centralization and empowerment of the federal government; Bundy's rebellion - if that is what it comes to - will do the same.  That's a pretty stupid price to pay for defending a scofflaw.

I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?
This is like stopping Common Core or closing national monuments during the sequester.  People want their local lives back.  If played wisely, it can be a boon.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2014, 10:56:20 AM »
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 11:02:37 AM by Luis Gonzalez »
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Oceander

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #172 on: April 15, 2014, 11:00:52 AM »
I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?
This is like stopping Common Core or closing national monuments during the sequester.  People want their local lives back.  If played wisely, it can be a boon.

On federal land?  State law enforcement has only as much jurisdiction on federal land as the federal government allows them to have.  As far as that is concerned there is nothing for the states to take back because the Constitution expressly gives the federal government paramount jurisdiction over federally-owned land.

If people want their local lives back then they ought not live them on federal lands.  If I don't like the rules my landlord puts in my lease I have two choices:  (a) find a new place to rent, or (b) buy my own place.  I do not - unless I'm Cliven Bundy - have the right to call out thousands of armed vigilantes to make my landlord back down so I can continue living in his house rent-free and without any regard for his rules.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #173 on: April 15, 2014, 11:05:19 AM »
I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?
This is like stopping Common Core or closing national monuments during the sequester.  People want their local lives back.  If played wisely, it can be a boon.

Take what power back?

Quote
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 U.S. Constitution:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

The State of Nevada never had power over the land in question.

Are you suggesting that we should overthrow the Constitution of the United States?
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #174 on: April 15, 2014, 11:13:56 AM »


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