Author Topic: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch  (Read 8740 times)

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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #125 on: April 13, 2014, 12:26:00 PM »
Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.

 :patriot:

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #126 on: April 13, 2014, 12:58:12 PM »
Not in the slightest Luis.   I have rental property, I don't get to call in snipers when the rent is late.  I would have my ass thrown in jail so quick it would make your head spin.  You wish to tolerate this action by our government on it's own citizens?

What I have major issues with is the massive overreach by ALL government agencies these days, this is only one of them.   If "self proclaimed" conservatives support this behavior in our local, state, and federal agencies, this country is already lost.

If they stay there twenty years, in violation of court orders to vacate your property, and they threaten violence if anyone ties to remove them, people with guns and protective gear, overwhelming force, will be called, by you, to have them removed.

The government gave Bundy twenty years to abide by the Court rulings. If the same government takes twenty years to remove renters from your property after a Court orders them out, you'd be attacking the government for not doing its job.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 01:01:04 PM by Luis Gonzalez »
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #127 on: April 13, 2014, 12:59:00 PM »
Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.

Hear, hear.

Libertarianism is anarchy to authoritarians and statists.
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #128 on: April 13, 2014, 01:14:41 PM »
Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.

Who sets the limits?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #129 on: April 13, 2014, 01:21:46 PM »
Who sets the limits?

The people via their State and Federal Constitutions, neither of which Bundy recognizes as legitimate.

 
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #130 on: April 13, 2014, 02:13:18 PM »
The people via their State and Federal Constitutions, neither of which Bundy recognizes as legitimate.

 
His group of supporters must be impressed by the cowboy hat and tough talk, because it can't be for his demonstrated respect for our system of laws, through elected representatives.

Thousands of other ranchers pay their fees, under exactly the same system. What makes him special?

BTW Sharron Angle's husband was a BLM employee.
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Offline EC

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #131 on: April 13, 2014, 02:50:53 PM »

I do apologize for the colorful language.  But the fact remains that he is a trespasser on someone else's property.  He knows that and he has openly admitted that he's a trespasser.  That makes him a lawbreaker.

I would like to put forward a rather blunt analogy:  Mr. Bundy is an illegal immigrant.  On the Bunkerville Allotment he overstayed his visa.  On the Gold Butte areas he simply took his cattle across the border without anyone's permission.  I'm not entirely sure why Mr. Bundy is a hero and all the rest devils.

Technically, you are an illegal immigrant.  :whistle:

Which Native tribe granted your ancestors land and permission to stay?

You knew I had to go there - the God of Mischief should expect it!
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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #132 on: April 13, 2014, 03:04:14 PM »
If they stay there twenty years, in violation of court orders to vacate your property, and they threaten violence if anyone ties to remove them, people with guns and protective gear, overwhelming force, will be called, by you, to have them removed.

The government gave Bundy twenty years to abide by the Court rulings. If the same government takes twenty years to remove renters from your property after a Court orders them out, you'd be attacking the government for not doing its job.

Something that continues to me misstated, I don't know whether intentional or not, but the Bundys were not and are not living on government (OUR) land.  The gubmint grass in question is next door.

You do understand what a sniper does right?  The scope on that rifle is not there to count turtles. 

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #133 on: April 13, 2014, 03:38:09 PM »
Something that continues to me misstated, I don't know whether intentional or not, but the Bundys were not and are not living on government (OUR) land.  The gubmint grass in question is next door.

You do understand what a sniper does right?  The scope on that rifle is not there to count turtles.

No one is saying that the Bundys are living on government land. Their cattle is grazing on government land.

No one is trying to take Bundy's home or his property. They are removing his cattle from government land because he hasn't paid his grazing fees since 1993.

The fact that he has (in the past) paid grazing fees should make it very clear, to even the most obstinate soul, that Bundy was using someone else's lad, since you don't have to pay grazing fees for your cattle to graze on your own property.

The snipers were there because Bundy has frequently threatened to use violence against anyone who tried to enforce the court orders.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:38:28 PM by Luis Gonzalez »
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

Online DCPatriot

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #134 on: April 13, 2014, 04:32:32 PM »
Okay!  Okay!  "Uncle" already!


Was just thinking that this may have been a teachable moment as to why our military and our U.S. bases don't allow soldiers to carry loaded weapons.

Even my son carried an empty rifle while on guard duty in Germany.

THAT'S why nobody got hurt.  Militia were steadfast in not shooting first.  Thank God none of them were like Boyd Crowder.

Imagine IF the rancher's supporters DID fire on the government...and it was discovered that they carried unloaded weapons?  Interesting...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:33:09 PM by DCPatriot »
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Offline ABX

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #135 on: April 13, 2014, 04:58:35 PM »
Here are the Dry Lake Solar documents that used to be on the BLM website up until a day or so ago. Copies of court orders also included.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ke3ap5qfw101r71/5YXGPwqndA

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/th7etvwuuk815o0/IPvUa6xBit
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:59:35 PM by AbaraXas »

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #136 on: April 13, 2014, 05:04:28 PM »
Who sets the limits?

Ultimately: the laws of God or Nature; take your pick. But people have a right to establish their own government, elect their own representatives, and to enact the rules by which such government must serve the people.  Our Constitution was designed for those purposes. It also includes the right to alter or abolish any government that exceeds its authority, especially when it violates inalienable human rights.   
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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #137 on: April 13, 2014, 05:08:42 PM »
No one is saying that the Bundys are living on government land. Their cattle is grazing on government land.

No one is trying to take Bundy's home or his property. They are removing his cattle from government land because he hasn't paid his grazing fees since 1993.

The fact that he has (in the past) paid grazing fees should make it very clear, to even the most obstinate soul, that Bundy was using someone else's lad, since you don't have to pay grazing fees for your cattle to graze on your own property.

The snipers were there because Bundy has frequently threatened to use violence against anyone who tried to enforce the court orders.

Quite a few have blurred the lines on this.  And confiscating his cattle IS seizing his property. 

The snipers were there to prove who was in charge, who is the master and who is the peon.

I give up, you want that kind of government, fine.  Don't call me when they come for you and yours.

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #138 on: April 13, 2014, 05:16:32 PM »
Ultimately: the laws of God or Nature; take your pick. But people have a right to establish their own government, elect their own representatives, and to enact the rules by which such government must serve the people.  Our Constitution was designed for those purposes. It also includes the right to alter or abolish any government that exceeds its authority, especially when it violates inalienable human rights.

That would be correct.  How many people in the past 244 years have accused the government as illegitimate?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online musiclady

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #139 on: April 13, 2014, 05:23:38 PM »
Not in the least.  I was born here.  Ius Soli.  Same reason some people dislike "anchor babies."  My great-greats (at least) were the anchors, however.

That's funny.

From your avatar, I thought you were a Norse god....   :smokin:
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Offline oldno7

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #140 on: April 13, 2014, 05:54:00 PM »
 I don't post here much, so I'll make it quick.

Is everyone here accepting of laws written by "lawmakers", for good or bad?(ie-we accept them)

Who writes laws enforced by the blm?

I'm done, see that was easy.

Better throw in a quote before I run..

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #141 on: April 13, 2014, 06:21:34 PM »
I don't post here much, so I'll make it quick.

Is everyone here accepting of laws written by "lawmakers", for good or bad?(ie-we accept them)

Who writes laws enforced by the blm?

I'm done, see that was easy.

Better throw in a quote before I run..

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

Good quote, you should post more often! 

One of the main problems that we have is that these (extra Constitutional for the most part) federal agencies write their own "regulations" which have the effect of "laws" actually written by the lawmakers that are supposed to have this authority (i.e., Congress and/or state legislatures).  Not only do these unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats write their own laws, but they have their own (armed to the teeth) enforcement divisions, and their own courts.  (And BTW, in these administrative law "courts," the citizen is not presumed innocent with the state required to make a case for guilt; it is basically the opposite, the citizen is presumed to be "guilty" with the burden of "proving" her/his innocence (and quite often being bankrupted in the process).)

This is one of the main ways that we have all been "criminalized" (referring to your Atlas Shrugged quote) and until it stops, the tyranny will just continue to harden day after day, as it has for decades.  Some will continue to cheer it on by taking the side of the tyrannical gubmint whenever possible, and others will fight it at every opportunity that presents itself.


Offline oldno7

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #142 on: April 13, 2014, 06:31:37 PM »
 Very well stated.

These were the points I wanted to bring up.

There is a lot more to this than a rancher refusing to pay a lease.


Here is a blm document showing the approved "renewable energy projects"

Of course one would take water from the muddy river, which empties into the Virgin river--you guessed it, just across from the land Cliven Bundy runs cattle.

This isn't made up info--these are facts.

All of the other renewable projects, flew through their EIS's,

ALL under the obama administration.

So it's clear--they get to choose where and how many turtles they can kill.

This has never been about cattle or turtles, it is clear.

www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/renewab...ewable_projects.html

Online aligncare

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #143 on: April 13, 2014, 07:34:42 PM »

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

I spent this weekend learning to navigate the new and old laws (now seriously being enforced) in healthcare.

HIPAA - Health Care Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, (established medical privacy laws). This is the legislation that put us on the road to nationalized medicine. We are currently seeing stepped up enforcement of HIPAA .

ACA, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) public law 111-148. Establishes provider screening and compliance programs.

Office of Inspector General (OIG) Report (June 2005) : The OIG determined that [significant numbers] of claims are in error or fraudulent.

DHHS AND DOJ ISSUE WARNING ON POTENTIAL EHR (Electronic Health Records) MISUSE  (Thursday, Oct 4, 2012)

-------------------

So, many doctors who are innocently unaware that a certain percentage of their customary practices are now illegal could find themselves getting a visit from the FBI, with jail time and fines in the millions of dollars simply for running afoul new regulations related to patient privacy and billing or for not being in "compliance" with HIPAA or Obamacare.

How does any of this help doctors get sick people well?


« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:55:01 PM by aligncare »

Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #144 on: April 13, 2014, 09:37:05 PM »
Very well stated.

These were the points I wanted to bring up.

There is a lot more to this than a rancher refusing to pay a lease.


Here is a blm document showing the approved "renewable energy projects"

Of course one would take water from the muddy river, which empties into the Virgin river--you guessed it, just across from the land Cliven Bundy runs cattle.

This isn't made up info--these are facts.

All of the other renewable projects, flew through their EIS's,

ALL under the obama administration.

So it's clear--they get to choose where and how many turtles they can kill.

This has never been about cattle or turtles, it is clear.

www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/renewab...ewable_projects.html



Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #145 on: April 13, 2014, 09:38:23 PM »

Offline ABX

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #146 on: April 13, 2014, 10:32:27 PM »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #147 on: April 13, 2014, 11:20:54 PM »



Kena fails to mention one tiny little point:  A big chunk of the land Mr. Bundy is trespassing on is land that he never had a grazing permit for in the first place.  That makes everything else ring hollow.

This is actually sad.

There is such built up animus for the government, so much distrust and such pent up frustration that people are willing to believe any story that paints the government in a bad light, even when the facts do not support the memes. As the news circulate through the blogosphere, the story begins to take a life of its own, and suddenly we have protected turtles, Harry Reid and the Chinese and facts no longer matter.

I think that reason stops at a certain point, and people don't care whether Bundy is right or wrong. They just want to fight the government.

It's dangerous times that we live in.
�[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State�s right to economize when necessary �� The Ministry of Fear by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165).

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #148 on: April 14, 2014, 03:57:05 AM »
Just leave this guy in peace. The government is getting a little petty in fighting a rancher.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 04:02:05 AM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #149 on: April 14, 2014, 04:35:43 AM »

I agree.  It's a shame also because all of that energy could be spent in so many more productive ways.  And it also ends up doing long-term damage because this will be portrayed to the undecided as just another reason to avoid the conservative "kooks" in November.

I respectfully disagree.  This may be exactly what's necessary to cut the dead wood from the legislatures.  People have long memories after situations like this.  It hangs with you like bile.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.


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