Author Topic: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch  (Read 13032 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2014, 12:37:51 am »
This is nothing more than a scheme to run ranchers off their land and using the government to do so. I hope this started something big. It's past time the government needs a shakeup.

BTW... the Bundy family has been fighting this battle for twenty years, which means that they had the same issues with the Feds while W was in office, and that ranchers were being run off their land while "our guy" was in office.

Where were the militias then?

We're being fed a whole lot of malarkey here.

Bundy is simply an anarchist who refuses to recognize the legitimacy of the US government.

Quote
Bundy principally opposes the United States’ motion for summary judgment on the ground that this court lacks jurisdiction because the United States does not own the public lands in question. As this court previously ruled in United States v. Bundy, Case No. CV-S- 98-531-JBR (RJJ) (D. Nev. Nov. 4, 1998), “the public lands in Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States.” CV-S-98-531 at 8 (ci

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

If Bundy is claiming that the United States do not own that land, isn't he then claiming to be a citizen of Mexico?:
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Offline evadR

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2014, 12:59:23 am »
I dunno.

Did the feds show up to evict Bundy while "our guy" was in office? Did they send in armed troops and snipers?
Maybe that's why the militias showed up.

just askin'
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 01:01:13 am by evadR² »
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2014, 01:06:43 am »
Loki wrote above:
[[ In this instance that is not the case.  The BLM is not making up the law as they go along.  They are following the law as written and as construed by the courts, including the Supreme Court. ]]

That may well be true. But if the BLM was solidly "in the right" in this case, why did they suddenly decide to pack it in not long after it was revealed that there may have been some shady doin's by Harry Reid and some Chinese investors -- looking for land on which to build a solar farm?

When a government agency has a solid case -- and considering that the BLM, like every other federal agency is probably thoroughly permeated by leftist ideology -- they have no need to back off. I don't for one minute believe that they were retreating because of a "fear of violence", particularly if the law and past court decisions are on their side.

Nope. Somethin' else is goin' on here...

Offline evadR

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2014, 01:27:04 am »
I dunno.

Did the feds show up to evict Bundy while "our guy" was in office? Did they send in armed troops and snipers?
Maybe that's why the malitias showed up.

just askin'

That is a decent question.  At least from the court documents and whatnot it seems that the BLM people were trying to find a way to work things out with Mr. Bundy and put a lot of time into it.

I am inclined to think that the prod that finally got them moving was the impending suit by an environut group over this turtle thing.

But even so, I do not think an armed militia is the proper response to this because Mr. Bundy is not innocent here, has played a very substantial role in getting things to this point, and the BLM could have done this many years ago.  From that perspective, the BLM effectively gave Mr. Bundy a lot more time to get his cattle in good order than he was given by the courts.

I agree.
My response was simply directed to the question posed "why didn't the militias show up before now".

I'll tell you what really bothers me about this whole affair...I consider myself to be a person who believes in the rule of law, even if I don't agree with the law. I don't believe in civil disobedience or violent demonstrations.

And yet, I feel good that the feds chose to back down, for now.  I'm very ashamed and disappointed in my government right now and feel it has lost total credibility in all respects.

If Barack Hussein Obama should somehow trip up and actually speak the truth about something, I wouldn't believe him and that's how I feel about this case against the Bundys. Our government has zero credibility.

That's sad.

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Offline evadR

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2014, 02:26:30 am »

It would appear that the appearance of the militia helped get them to back down.  I suppose I'm just a little too risk-averse to want to play chicken with the federal gov't using militias.
True dat.
Funny thing is, up until now, I had never much cared for militias any more than I cared for the black panthers.

I may have to rethink that position.
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Offline evadR

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2014, 02:29:27 am »
If that's what it takes to get this lawless government we have, and I'm speaking broadly here, to back down and rethink what they are doing, then maybe it's a good thing.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2014, 03:21:36 am »
It's a little more nuanced than that.  Mr. Bundy's position is basically that the land in question became the property of the State of Nevada automatically at the instant the State of Nevada sprang into existence.  The theory, which the Supreme Court has already shot down, is that the federal government was only holding the land in trust for future states and that there is a doctrine called the Equal Footing Doctrine under which new states have the same rights and powers as existing states, under which all of the non-private land within a state's borders automatically became the land of that state because when the original 13 states were admitted, the non-private land in each new state belonged to that state not the federal government.  This position has already been addressed in other cases not involving Mr. Bundy and has been shot down.

Nevada State Constitution of 1864 (year Nevada became a State):

The Nevada Constitution says the following:

“That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States."
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2014, 10:50:27 am »
That is a decent question.  At least from the court documents and whatnot it seems that the BLM people were trying to find a way to work things out with Mr. Bundy and put a lot of time into it.

I am inclined to think that the prod that finally got them moving was the impending suit by an environut group over this turtle thing.

But even so, I do not think an armed militia is the proper response to this because Mr. Bundy is not innocent here, has played a very substantial role in getting things to this point, and the BLM could have done this many years ago.  From that perspective, the BLM effectively gave Mr. Bundy a lot more time to get his cattle in good order than he was given by the courts.

Sorry, the armed militia is the EXACT response for these shenanigans.  You can't see the whites of their eyes when their boots on your neck.
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Offline EC

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2014, 11:13:34 am »
Sorry, the armed militia is the EXACT response for these shenanigans.  You can't see the whites of their eyes when their boots on your neck.

You don't need to. That is when you go for the groin.
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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2014, 01:50:17 pm »
Sorry, the armed militia is the EXACT response for these shenanigans.  You can't see the whites of their eyes when their boots on your neck.

The government's cheerleaders can say what they wish about the excessive show of force to collect, per said cheerleaders, back rent, but I also think the militia made the difference here. 

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2014, 03:02:03 pm »

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.

Sometimes it requires a scoundrel to get the ball rollling.  It seems the core of the American Right are too busy with concern with their franchise opportunities and strings of poloponies to look up from their smartphones.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2014, 03:02:51 pm »
The government's cheerleaders can say what they wish about the excessive show of force to collect, per said cheerleaders, back rent, but I also think the militia made the difference here.

You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here.

This guy appears to be some sort of quasi anarchist who doesn't recognize or accept any law beyond his own wishes.

The land that he's had his cattle grazing on belonged to Mexico until 1848. Ownership of it was transferred to the United States at that time, a full 16 years before there even was a Nevada.

As per the 1864 Constitution of Nevada and every applicable court case since that time, the land remained the property of the United States, as it remains today the property of the United States.

Bundy refuses to recognize the validity of the United States government as well as the validity of his own State's Constitution. He's violated Court orders and has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Of all the entities that may own that land, he is the one who absolutely has zero claim to ownership of it, yet he insists that the land his his to use as he sees fit, at no cost to himself.

If you wish to uphold anarchy as patriotism that's your right, but remember that anarchy translates into tyranny by the strongest, which eventually leads to the loss of all liberty.

Beware what it is that you support.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #112 on: April 13, 2014, 03:03:19 pm »
Sometimes it requires a scoundrel to get the ball rollling.  It seems the core of the American Right are too busy with concern with their franchise opportunities and strings of poloponies to look up from their smartphones.

I wonder where radio gadfly and finger to the winder Limbaugh will come down on this?
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Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2014, 03:04:37 pm »
You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here.

This guy appears to be some sort of quasi anarchist who doesn't recognize or accept any law beyond his own wishes.

The land that he's had his cattle grazing on belonged to Mexico until 1848. Ownership of it was transferred to the United States at that time, a full 16 years before there even was a Nevada.

As per the 1864 Constitution of Nevada and every applicable court case since that time, the land remained the property of the United States, as it remains today the property of the United States.

Bundy refuses to recognize the validity of the United States government as well as the validity of his own State's Constitution. He's violated Court orders and has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Of all the entities that may own that land, he is the one who absolutely has zero claim to ownership of it, yet he insists that the land his his to use as he sees fit, at no cost to himself.

If you wish to uphold anarchy as patriotism that's your right, but remember that anarchy translates into tyranny by the strongest, which eventually leads to the loss of all liberty.

Beware what it is that you support.

I support anarchy over tyranny.  I would at least pretend to think I have rights.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:05:16 pm by olde north church »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2014, 03:06:22 pm »
I support anarchy over tyranny.  I would at least pretend to think I have rights.

Anarchy IS tyranny.

What protection s the individual afforded in anarchy against a greater force?

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2014, 03:08:38 pm »
I support anarchy over tyranny.  I would at least pretend to think I have rights.

You have no rights in a country were anarchy reigns, or at least you have no one to protect you against the violation of those rights by people with greater strength.

Anarchy is constant strife and rule by he who wields the greatest brute force over the weak.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2014, 03:13:29 pm »
Luis wrote above:
[[ You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here…]]

In times like these, you take advantage of the "heroes" you have available.

Mr. Bundy certainly is not "pure as the driven snow".

Nevertheless, his -is- an example of today's over-reaching fedgov grinding its boot down on the individual. And with the implications of Harry Reid (and "his guy" in the BLM) behind some of this, "the government" is hardly "the good guy".

You might just as well argue that the colonists who dumped the tea into Boston harbor were lawbreakers (which they were, indeed). Yet in that "lawbreaking" event, the "wrong guy, lawbreaking" persons are today "heroes" in American history.

Online andy58-in-nh

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2014, 03:19:21 pm »
Anarchy IS tyranny.

What protection is the individual afforded in anarchy against a greater force?

Anarchy is one form of tyranny, defined by an absence of laws necessary to protect human rights. Totalitarian rule represents the other extreme: the rule of men by means of unnatural laws that deny natural human rights.

Anarchy is not the answer to tyranny. The answer is ordered liberty: a system of constitutionally-limited and representative government based upon the rule of law.

It would be wonderful indeed if we were to return to one, some day.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2014, 03:28:53 pm »
Luis wrote above:
[[ You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here…]]

In times like these, you take advantage of the "heroes" you have available.

Mr. Bundy certainly is not "pure as the driven snow".

Nevertheless, his -is- an example of today's over-reaching fedgov grinding its boot down on the individual. And with the implications of Harry Reid (and "his guy" in the BLM) behind some of this, "the government" is hardly "the good guy".

You might just as well argue that the colonists who dumped the tea into Boston harbor were lawbreakers (which they were, indeed). Yet in that "lawbreaking" event, the "wrong guy, lawbreaking" persons are today "heroes" in American history.

The colonists that dumped the Tea into Boston harbor were lawbreakers. But after they won that argument, they set up the system of laws that Bundy refuses to acknowledge has any sovereignty over him or the land that he wants to use for free. They set up the Court system that has found him wrong, and whose mandates he refuses to follow. Yet, I bet you that had those Courts agreed with him, he would be wrapping himself in their findings and demanding that the supremacy of the Courts be respected.

Neither you or I, nor would  any reasonable person for that matter, believe that we have the right to set up a burger joint in the middle of Yosemite National Park without securing the right to do so from the Federal government or paying any form of fees to the same, so where does Bundy get the right to run a business on land that's not his without having to pay anyone for the use of it?

Bundy is no hero, nor is he the moral descendant of the Founders,
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:29:56 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2014, 03:29:53 pm »

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.


Come on, that's a bit strong, don't you think?

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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #120 on: April 13, 2014, 03:50:56 pm »
You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here.

This guy appears to be some sort of quasi anarchist who doesn't recognize or accept any law beyond his own wishes.

The land that he's had his cattle grazing on belonged to Mexico until 1848. Ownership of it was transferred to the United States at that time, a full 16 years before there even was a Nevada.

As per the 1864 Constitution of Nevada and every applicable court case since that time, the land remained the property of the United States, as it remains today the property of the United States.

Bundy refuses to recognize the validity of the United States government as well as the validity of his own State's Constitution. He's violated Court orders and has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Of all the entities that may own that land, he is the one who absolutely has zero claim to ownership of it, yet he insists that the land his his to use as he sees fit, at no cost to himself.

If you wish to uphold anarchy as patriotism that's your right, but remember that anarchy translates into tyranny by the strongest, which eventually leads to the loss of all liberty.

Beware what it is that you support.

Not in the slightest Luis.   I have rental property, I don't get to call in snipers when the rent is late.  I would have my ass thrown in jail so quick it would make your head spin.  You wish to tolerate this action by our government on it's own citizens?

What I have major issues with is the massive overreach by ALL government agencies these days, this is only one of them.   If "self proclaimed" conservatives support this behavior in our local, state, and federal agencies, this country is already lost.

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #121 on: April 13, 2014, 03:56:16 pm »
You have no rights in a country were anarchy reigns, or at least you have no one to protect you against the violation of those rights by people with greater strength.

Anarchy is constant strife and rule by he who wields the greatest brute force over the weak.

There is fascist, trust fund tyranny as exemplified by the OWS crowd.  Then there is the other type of anarchy.  The anarchy of the sovereign man.  True libertarianism.  Where there is no government to pick through my garbage or my garments.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2014, 03:59:40 pm »

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.

Really Loki?

I have always wondered if the situation would have turned out differently if more citizens had arrived on scene.

From what is being reported, the sheriff diffused the situation in Nevada, same thing could have happened in Waco if the feds would have included local LE.  But no, that wasn't the case, the feds had to show how tough they were.

If you wish to support saving the children by killing them, go right ahead.

Offline olde north church

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #123 on: April 13, 2014, 04:05:54 pm »

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.

You have to wonder why they don't "Koresh" some of this little muslim hamlets.  You know, the folks who actually cause trouble and stir up misery.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online andy58-in-nh

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #124 on: April 13, 2014, 04:23:45 pm »
There is fascist, trust fund tyranny as exemplified by the OWS crowd.  Then there is the other type of anarchy.  The anarchy of the sovereign man.  True libertarianism.  Where there is no government to pick through my garbage or my garments.

Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn