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Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 03:42:10 PM »
Interesting. You scold me for buying Dem spin, then go on to explain a factor in increasing costs. Take a breath, try to visualize before you rant.

If I sell you something, and the price is high, you don't care how it got to be high, you just know it is. That's the cost, right?

Your stated the GOP should launch their own plan because costs are exploding.  The GOP coming up with a "plan" will on further add to ever-growing government and do nothing for the real reason healthcare costs have been going up.    They proved in Texas when you do something about trial lawyers the costs start to take care of themselves... and BTW what do you consider "exploding" costs?  It is government regulation (as I pointed out) that is the biggest reasons doctors have to charge what they charge and another reason I didn't mention for higher insurance costs is we have been picking up the costs of the unpaid treatment in this country for illegal aliens. Do you honestly think either party is going to do anything to stop that???  If one person doesn't pay for something - be it something someone steals from a store or treatment in a hospital - the unpaid costs just get passed on to the people who do pay.

What I want is less government - not more government - be it either party.....  I am sick of them thinking their sole purpose to show up 113 days a year in DC is to pass another piece of legislation to make our lives ever more complicated.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline olde north church

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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2013, 03:51:13 PM »
People want to live forever.  Living forever costs money, technology, doctors, medicine, nurses and other staff.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Relic

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« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2013, 03:59:19 PM »
Your stated the GOP should launch their own plan because costs are exploding.  The GOP coming up with a "plan" will on further add to ever-growing government and do nothing for the real reason healthcare costs have been going up.    They proved in Texas when you do something about trial lawyers the costs start to take care of themselves... and BTW what do you consider "exploding" costs?  It is government regulation (as I pointed out) that is the biggest reasons doctors have to charge what they charge and another reason I didn't mention for higher insurance costs is we have been picking up the costs of the unpaid treatment in this country for illegal aliens. Do you honestly think either party is going to do anything to stop that???  If one person doesn't pay for something - be it something someone steals from a store or treatment in a hospital - the unpaid costs just get passed on to the people who do pay.

What I want is less government - not more government - be it either party.....  I am sick of them thinking their sole purpose to show up 113 days a year in DC is to pass another piece of legislation to make our lives ever more complicated.

You are way too charged up about this. Might be good to slow down and read what was posted before kicking trying to kick someone's virtual arse.

I said the GOP ignored the problems in healthcare, exploding costs and the uncertainty. I have often worried that a catastrophic illness would wipe me out. I've worked in a medical setting where they have a person read obituaries so that the facility can go after the estate of those who pass and owe money.

I consider costs what it costs me, the end user. I don't care if the cost includes malpractice insurance, wages for doctors or payments on the doctor's Mercedes, I just care what it costs me. In that sense, costs have been going up.

A stupid public, a liberal media, Democrats and impotent Republicans have brought us to this point. Like it or not, we're going to get single payer.

Online Bigun

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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2013, 04:00:19 PM »
Quote
What I want is less government - not more government - be it either party.....  I am sick of them thinking their sole purpose to show up 113 days a year in DC is to pass another piece of legislation to make our lives ever more complicated.

 :amen: Sister!  :amen:

And a little more regard for our Constitution would be a big help as well!

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2013, 04:02:51 PM »

I consider costs what it costs me, the end user. I don't care if the cost includes malpractice insurance, wages for doctors or payments on the doctor's Mercedes, I just care what it costs me. In that sense, costs have been going up.

A stupid public, a liberal media, Democrats and impotent Republicans have brought us to this point. Like it or not, we're going to get single payer.

Sounds like yoiu want single payer and frankly your saying you don't care why the cost is high you just care how YOU are affected is how we got in this mess.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Online Bigun

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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2013, 04:05:27 PM »
Quote
Like it or not, we're going to get single payer.

You need to start practicing the French Salute! (Two hand held up as high over your head as you can get them!)

Come to think of it, you seem really good at it already!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 04:06:27 PM by Bigun »

Offline Relic

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« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2013, 04:06:48 PM »
Sounds like yoiu want single payer and frankly your saying you don't care why the cost is high you just care how YOU are affected is how we got in this mess.

I don't want single payer, but it's coming, that's the whole point of the Obamacare exercise. I'd bet money on it. Too many people feel it's a "right".

You're darn right. I don't care about the cost component of most things I buy. Do you know what the raw material cost is, in the laptop you buy? You're getting a bit unhinged.

Offline Relic

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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2013, 04:09:00 PM »
You need to start practicing the French Salute! (Two hand held up as high over your head as you can get them!)

Come to think of it, you seem really good at it already!

Awww, Spiro, what's wrong? A prediction bothers you so much you have to take a feeble swipe at someone who isn't as pure as you are conservatively?

I'm telling you we're in a mess, and single payer is next.

I know a couple of salutes, and I'll choose which one I offer you.

Online Bigun

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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2013, 04:11:48 PM »
Awww, Spiro, what's wrong? A prediction bothers you so much you have to take a feeble swipe at someone who isn't as pure as you are conservatively?

I'm telling you we're in a mess, and single payer is next.

I know a couple of salutes, and I'll choose which one I offer you.

And a California salute right back at you surrender monkey!

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2013, 04:12:14 PM »
I don't want single payer, but it's coming, that's the whole point of the Obamacare exercise. I'd bet money on it. Too many people feel it's a "right".

You're darn right. I don't care about the cost component of most things I buy. Do you know what the raw material cost is, in the laptop you buy? You're getting a bit unhinged.

Actually the only person getting unhinged here is you........ the fact you say you don't care why something costs what it costs IS the problem... look at what the state of Ohio insists the carriers who are licensed to sell insurance in your state are forced to sell everyone in your state...   you want lower costs and good care?  It sure isn't going to be single payer.  and it certainly is not going to be Obamacare....  since you don't care that  the cost of healthcare is a huge component of legislation and malpractice insurance then you are no more informed than the LIV's you love to post about here.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Relic

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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2013, 04:23:02 PM »
Actually the only person getting unhinged here is you........ the fact you say you don't care why something costs what it costs IS the problem... look at what the state of Ohio insists the carriers who are licensed to sell insurance in your state are forced to sell everyone in your state...   you want lower costs and good care?  It sure isn't going to be single payer.  and it certainly is not going to be Obamacare....  since you don't care that  the cost of healthcare is a huge component of legislation and malpractice insurance then you are no more informed than the LIV's you love to post about here.

See, that's where people like you get into a twist, and why Republicans continually lose elections.

What I've posted didn't fit with your immediate, charged world view, so you got all hot and bothered. Now I have two of you calling me names, because, well... I'd better keep that one to myself.

I work in healthcare, I know what goes into the costs. I know how the uninsured use the ER, and how much is reimbursed by the government for charity work, and how much is a loss that must be passed on. But, when I buy things, I don't do a cost breakdown before I buy it. I know what it costs and I try to get the best value. If that makes me low information, then either you're totally confused, or almost everyone is low information.

Tell me, oh wise one, on your last lap top, how much of the total price was material cost, how much was labor cost, how much was overhead? Or didn't you do that analysis?

As for single payer, I said it several times, but you two refuse to read what I'm saying, you give it your own twist. I don't want it, and it's coming, but you you'd rather throw some more ignorant insults my way.

Both of you now, together, post to me... "Why don't you go back to the DU?!"

Friggin' twits, no wonder the GOP can't get people elected to anything more important than dog catcher.

Offline massadvj

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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2013, 04:24:14 PM »
While I do agree that the purpose of OPapaCare was to facilitate single-payer, I disagree that single-payer is "coming," at least anytime soon.  There is no chance in hell that a single payer system will come out of this congress.

Getting OPapaCare passed was difficult enough.  To assume that, in the face of this unmitigated disaster, congress will do something even more radical is ludicrous.

Look at what the Dems are doing.  That ought to tell you something.  They are attempting to run as far from this as they possibly can.  It will be far easier for them to support relaxing the various restrictions in the law and then letting it die of its own weight.

Once you get rid of the individual and employer mandates, then do away with all the regulatory requirements, even OPapaDoc will support repeal. 
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2013, 04:26:15 PM »


I work in healthcare, I know what goes into the costs. I know how the uninsured use the ER, and how much is reimbursed by the government for charity work, and how much is a loss that must be passed on. But, when I buy things, I don't do a cost breakdown before I buy it. I know what it costs and I try to get the best value. If that makes me low information, then either you're totally confused, or almost everyone is low information.
 

For someone who claims to work in healthcare (as I have for 22 years) it is pretty amazing you are pushing single payer here.   

So tell us ... what - other than single payer - is "YOUR solution.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Relic

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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2013, 04:34:26 PM »
For someone who claims to work in healthcare (as I have for 22 years) it is pretty amazing you are pushing single payer here.   

So tell us ... what - other than single payer - is "YOUR solution.

Pushing single payer? See, I carefully outline what I'm saying, and you continue to mischaracterize it. Is it your desire to irritate as many people as you can in any given day? If so, I'd say you're a natural.

There are common sense solutions posted in this thread, I'm not going to repost them, because you are either incapable of comprehending my posts, ore you willfully dismiss my words. 

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2013, 04:36:46 PM »
Pushing single payer? See, I carefully outline what I'm saying, and you continue to mischaracterize it. Is it your desire to irritate as many people as you can in any given day? If so, I'd say you're a natural.

There are common sense solutions posted in this thread, I'm not going to repost them, because you are either incapable of comprehending my posts, ore you willfully dismiss my words.

What is YOUR solution.  "You made the statement there is exploding costs the GOP needs to address. WHAT do YOU want the GOP to legislate?
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Online Bigun

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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2013, 04:40:19 PM »
While I do agree that the purpose of OPapaCare was to facilitate single-payer, I disagree that single-payer is "coming," at least anytime soon.  There is no chance in hell that a single payer system will come out of this congress.

Getting OPapaCare passed was difficult enough.  To assume that, in the face of this unmitigated disaster, congress will do something even more radical is ludicrous.

Look at what the Dems are doing.  That ought to tell you something.  They are attempting to run as far from this as they possibly can.  It will be far easier for them to support relaxing the various restrictions in the law and then letting it die of its own weight.

Once you get rid of the individual and employer mandates, then do away with all the regulatory requirements, even OPapaDoc will support repeal.

Again you have nailed it Professor!

Spot on!   :beer:

Offline Relic

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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2013, 04:42:17 PM »
While I do agree that the purpose of OPapaCare was to facilitate single-payer, I disagree that single-payer is "coming," at least anytime soon.  There is no chance in hell that a single payer system will come out of this congress.

Getting OPapaCare passed was difficult enough.  To assume that, in the face of this unmitigated disaster, congress will do something even more radical is ludicrous.

Look at what the Dems are doing.  That ought to tell you something.  They are attempting to run as far from this as they possibly can.  It will be far easier for them to support relaxing the various restrictions in the law and then letting it die of its own weight.

Once you get rid of the individual and employer mandates, then do away with all the regulatory requirements, even OPapaDoc will support repeal.

The current chaos in healthcare was purposefully created by the Democrats, don't you think? I do.

I know a lot of Democrats threw away their political careers to get Obamacare passed. I think the Dems were counting on the same lemming like response to this current crisis. That some are scrambling for cover is encouraging, but not a sure sign of defeat.

As the employer mandate comes into play, the insurance market is going to be a mess. I can see the media, Dems, and GOPe pushing single payer as the solution to the newly created healthcare crisis. I also see a public that largely believes that heathcare is a right.

I hope you're right. Nothing the government does is efficient, and precious little that they do is effective. Congress is comprised of 535 self interested souls. If they think that single payer will mollify the public and save their political skins, it will happen. I'd be willing to bet that is what Hillary will use as a plank in her platform.

Offline Relic

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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2013, 04:53:15 PM »
What is YOUR solution.  "You made the statement there is exploding costs the GOP needs to address. WHAT do YOU want the GOP to legislate?

Suddenly you can read some of my words? I guess it's sort of selective for you?

Two of the biggest items that appeal to me, and AC posted upthread, (Do you have problems reading AC's posts too?)

- Nationwide insurance competition
- Tort reform

I'd also like to see healthcare unbundled from employment. Getting your healthcare from your employer just doesn't make sense. I don't get my auto, or homeowner's insurance from my employer.

It's also important to make the consumer aware of the cost. Encourage open pricing and competition among providers. A plan to reward consumers for going to facilities that are less expensive, while allowing free choice if the consumer wants a more expensive provider.


Offline massadvj

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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2013, 04:54:41 PM »
The current chaos in healthcare was purposefully created by the Democrats, don't you think? I do.

I know a lot of Democrats threw away their political careers to get Obamacare passed. I think the Dems were counting on the same lemming like response to this current crisis. That some are scrambling for cover is encouraging, but not a sure sign of defeat.

As the employer mandate comes into play, the insurance market is going to be a mess. I can see the media, Dems, and GOPe pushing single payer as the solution to the newly created healthcare crisis. I also see a public that largely believes that heathcare is a right.

I hope you're right. Nothing the government does is efficient, and precious little that they do is effective. Congress is comprised of 535 self interested souls. If they think that single payer will mollify the public and save their political skins, it will happen. I'd be willing to bet that is what Hillary will use as a plank in her platform.

Hah!  After this, Hillary will pretend she never heard of single-payer.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2013, 04:56:53 PM »
Suddenly you can read some of my words? I guess it's sort of selective for you?

Two of the biggest items that appeal to me, and AC posted upthread, (Do you have problems reading AC's posts too?)

- Nationwide insurance competition
- Tort reform

I'd also like to see healthcare unbundled from employment. Getting your healthcare from your employer just doesn't make sense. I don't get my auto, or homeowner's insurance from my employer.

It's also important to make the consumer aware of the cost. Encourage open pricing and competition among providers. A plan to reward consumers for going to facilities that are less expensive, while allowing free choice if the consumer wants a more expensive provider.

You cannot get around states rights in your first choice - the insurance commissioners and state legislatures decide what is covered in each state.

There is a reason employers paid for our insurance - goes all the way back to Roosevelt when he froze wages and the only way employers could do something for their employees was give them insurance.  Also, in groups the price of insurance is cheaper than when people have to be sent out into the individual market to purchase coverage so it is actually an apples and oranges thing.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Relic

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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2013, 05:07:35 PM »
You cannot get around states rights in your first choice - the insurance commissioners and state legislatures decide what is covered in each state.

There is a reason employers paid for our insurance - goes all the way back to Roosevelt when he froze wages and the only way employers could do something for their employees was give them insurance.  Also, in groups the price of insurance is cheaper than when people have to be sent out into the individual market to purchase coverage so it is actually an apples and oranges thing.

Why is it that Allstate can offer auto insurance in 50 states, but not health insurance? You're saying it can't be changed, fixed? Are you saying Congress can't influence states?

I'm well aware as to why employers offer health insurance as a benefit, that doesn't make it any more logical in today's environment. Wouldn't other forms of insurance be cheaper in groups? Using your logic, we should get all of our insurance from our employer. No, unbundle it from the employer. The consumer can join whatever group he or she finds to be beneficial to cut costs, (AMAC, VFW, etc.).

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2013, 05:13:04 PM »
Why is it that Allstate can offer auto insurance in 50 states, but not health insurance? You're saying it can't be changed, fixed? Are you saying Congress can't influence states?

I'm well aware as to why employers offer health insurance as a benefit, that doesn't make it any more logical in today's environment. Wouldn't other forms of insurance be cheaper in groups? Using your logic, we should get all of our insurance from our employer. No, unbundle it from the employer. The consumer can join whatever group he or she finds to be beneficial to cut costs, (AMAC, VFW, etc.).

We have a thing called the Tenth Amendment - aka States Rights.  This is why each state has an insurance commissioner an he or she is tasked with approving the plans offered in their individual states. 

I know you do not agree and will never agree but the less influence the government has on how insurance is offered in this country - the better.    Even tort reform is a state by state issue (Texas has it and it helped grow their economy and lower premiums in their state).

And BTW single payer will not reduce costs. It will drive the costs up, not down.

No subsidies
No tax credits
Yes on tort reform

Let the employers determine what benefits they want to give their employees - that isn't anyone's business other than the people running said company.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2013, 05:17:00 PM »
As for auto insurance -- it is pretty straight-forward.  You carry X $ in coverage, you want x $ in deductible you want replacement coverage or just liability in case you damage some else's property.  You want Med-Pay coverage?  If so how much?   and you do or do not want uninsured driver coverage...

walla... you can see across state lines because you just checkmark the blanks of what you do or don't want, they check your driving record and give you a price.

For health insurance one state mandates one thing  another state mandates another thing and yet another state mandates another... all the plans a company is willing to offer at a certain price is vetted by the state commissioner and then the company is licensed to sell health insurance in said state and can sell in one state but not another..... then you have the union plans - a whole other ball of wax.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline DCPatriot

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« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2013, 05:18:35 PM »
Again you have nailed it Professor!

Spot on!   :beer:

Not so fast there, please.

This regime passed Obamacare on Christmas Eve 2009 after using backroom deals and special rules....knowing that the rookie Senator from Massachusetts who won Ted Kennedy's seat was going to be the 41st vote against.

This regime rules by Executive Order and they don't give a hoot about not only how the law is written, they'll decide to which ones they'll obey/prosecute, etc..

Single Payer will be marketed to look like an oasis in a desert of crap.  If the GOP opposes it without a cogent, succinct solution of their own, the GOP could get burned....again.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - Iowahawk

Whatever you're doing today, do it with all the confidence of a four-year-old wearing a Batman tee-shirt.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2013, 05:22:05 PM »
Not so fast there, please.

This regime passed Obamacare on Christmas Eve 2009 after using backroom deals and special rules....knowing that the rookie Senator from Massachusetts who won Ted Kennedy's seat was going to be the 41st vote against.

This regime rules by Executive Order and they don't give a hoot about not only how the law is written, they'll decide to which ones they'll obey/prosecute, etc..

Single Payer will be marketed to look like an oasis in a desert of crap.  If the GOP opposes it without a cogent, succinct solution of their own, the GOP could get burned....again.

Why is everyone so anxious for the GOP to pass yet another bill... this is how we got in this danged mess to begin with... and why in the hell push single payer... do you realize how that WILL destroy what is left of our healthcare?  and is the ultimate goal of the marxists in this country.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776


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