Media Targets Million Veteran March

[musiclady]

Regarding politics, I'm not looking to join a choir but rather to form a jazz ensemble. Many different voices, but with the same aim: make beautiful music. (Ouch! Sorry)

Sorry? Excellent metaphor actually.

Only a good metaphor if you ignore 20th and 21st century choral music with its tone clusters, polytonality, and various and sundry 'differences' in sound. 

I participated in singing the St. Luke Passion of Penderecki at Carnegie Hall, and the first chord is a dilly!   

[Liberal_Spy]

Questions which remain unresolved....

As a feminist who abhors racism, I still want to know why liberals support racist government policies, abortion, which destroys women (not to mention that more babies killed are female),

I want to know why liberals blindly support misogynist, abusive (and homophobic) Islam, and are forcing that on our schools.

I want to know why liberals want to keep blacks down and thinks of them as lesser people than whites.

I want to know why liberals are not bothered by the slaughter of young black men by each other.

I want to know why liberals cry "RACIST!" at every turn, and ignore the overt racism of their own philosophies.

I want to know why liberals are trying to take away religious liberty and silence Christians.

I want to know why liberals want to take away the right to defend ourselves by keeping and bearing arms, by taking guns away from law abiding citizens.

And in keeping with the subject of this thread, I want to know why liberals hate veterans, why they are targeting them in this faux shut down, and why they support swat teams' coming after WWII veterans with billy clubs.

Many of these questions have already been asked to our young liberal here, but he has refused to answer any of them.

THAT.......is intellectual dishonesty.

1.) Liberals support a woman's right to have an abortion because it is believed among the left community that a woman should have ultimate say over her body. This one is ironic to me, because the right wing likes to talk about how much of a drain poor people with lots of kids are on society, but at the same time want to take away their ability to have abortions, and even limit their access to contraceptives that would keep women from getting pregnant in the first place. We completely disagree on your assertion that this policy is racist.

2.) We completely disagree on your assertion that liberals and the left wing support Islam and the indoctrination of children. The left is interested in the complete separation of church and state, and I know for a fact that I have never met or heard of a liberal that claims to support the empowering of middle eastern religions over Christianity.

3.) I can't speak for all liberals, but the ones I talk to are interested in the poor black communities in this country being rehabilitated and helped to get to the point where they don't need so much government assistance. Saying black people should be willing and able to take care of themselves is true, but the fact of the matter is right now a lot of them DO need things like food stamps. Saying they need to be taught to take care of themselves doesn't change the fact that there are young black people starving and dying at this very moment, incapable of getting the life experience needed to become functioning members of society. Part of the reason these communities are so downtrodden is because being poor and making bad decisions is easy to do when that's what you've grown up around, and that is all you know.

When a young black person can't find a job to feed himself/his family, it probably sounds really nice to be able to sell some drugs and live worry free, which is honestly part of the reason I am so against the war on drugs. I feel the illegal drug selling market disproportionately effects and hurts black communities, because people with less money and less opportunities (as they see it) are more apt to start participating in illegal activity. This is how we get to a place where 1 in 3 black men either are or have been in prison.

4.) What specifically are you talking about here? Are you talking about gangs and gang warfare? My stance against the war on drugs would significantly cripple gangs because illegal drugs are where they get all of their funding, are how they buy all of their weapons, and is what leads to altercations and violence between gangs.

5.) We completely disagree on racism being a huge part of liberalism. I just don't see it, and we have a complete, fundamental disagreement there.

6.) I will admit that the left wing may seem harsh on Christians, but as far as politics go, they simply seek the complete separation of church and state. Any reasonable liberal will not tell you he has a problem with you going to church, praying, and practicing your religion. I feel all people should believe whatever it is that makes the universe makes sense to them, and that nobody should try to stop them from doing that.

7.) I am a liberal and I am completely against limiting our right to bear arms. I think making firearms illegal will empower the black market in the same way keeping drugs illegal does. When something that a lot of people want is illegal, people that are willing to break the law will make a lot of money off of selling that product.

8.) As a liberal, I do not hate, and in fact AM a veteran. I'm completely against the militarization of the police, and am disgusted by the way the government has used them against civilians.

[aligncare]

... some common ground. The rest? Not so much....

(I see patients today. This is as much of a response as I have time for now)

[Rapunzel]

The ultimate control a woman has over her body argument is bull. In this day and age birth control is Chris ad plentiful.  You claim to have a young child.  Did YOU look at the 3D Ultrasound of that baby?  Would YOU have killed that baby in the womb after seeing it in there moving around, sucking its thumb, etc. And more... did you by any stretch happen to follow the Gosnell trial or read the Grand Jury transcript or the photos submitted at trial?  Are you aware one of the male reporters who attended the trial and had the exact same attitude as you became pro-life as a result of what he sat through in that court room.

[Rapunzel]

That young black man should finish school and learn to speak proper English.  Watch some of the Judge Judy cases if you don't know what I'm talking about.  Even her black bailiff rolls his eyes and shakes his head. 

[Liberal_Spy]

The ultimate control a woman has over her body argument is bull. In this day and age birth control is Chris ad plentiful.  You claim to have a young child.  Did YOU look at the 3D Ultrasound of that baby?  Would YOU have killed that baby in the womb after seeing it in there moving around, sucking its thumb, etc. And more... did you by any stretch happen to follow the Gosnell trial or read the Grand Jury transcript or the photos submitted at trial?  Are you aware one of the male reporters who attended the trial and had the exact same attitude as you became pro-life as a result of what he sat through in that court room.

I personally would never try to have my child aborted, but I respect that sometimes people are in situations where they feel that is their only option. I don't think a person should be able to tell a woman "You will have this baby, and there is nothing you can do about it" because I feel there are ALWAYS going to be special cases with extraordinary circumstances to consider. I hate that young people irresponsibly have sex, and then jump straight into having an abortion because they don't want to take care of the baby, but that doesn't result in me thinking abortion should never be an option.

[Liberal_Spy]

That young black man should finish school and learn to speak proper English.  Watch some of the Judge Judy cases if you don't know what I'm talking about.  Even her black bailiff rolls his eyes and shakes his head.

That isn't easy to do when local schools don't get the funding or the staff to properly educate young black people.

[truth_seeker]

The reason conservatism is losing ground (IF it is) is because the left IS dishonest.

And it owns the media, popular culture, and education.  There are a whole slew of kids coming out of colleges, and young people inculcated with media/cultural propaganda who cannot think for themselves.

There were multiple people who tried to persuade this young liberal that what he had been told and was regurgitating was wrong, posting all manner of information, photographs, facts, in a very polite manner, but he blithely ignored them, and continued posting in an intellectually dishonest manner.

You cannot 'educate' a person who has come here to divide, t_s.

And it is not honest to sugar coat the evil of today's leftist philosophy to make friends with someone who isn't the slightest bit interested in finding out the truth.

I'm going to disagree. It wasn't much different, when I graduated college in 1973 on the 8 year program. I was married, a father, and a vet. I came from a GOP household but was an idealistic young lliberal--voted for McGovern.

But that quickly changed, because conservatism was making a case. In 1976 Milton Friedman's series was in the public domain.

Conservatism put in an effort to convince, convert, persuade people. I was quickly convinced, by my formal business-economics education, on the job, and by people like Friedman, and Reagan.

Friedman and Reagan didn't win people over by dismissing them, calling them names. They treated them with respect, on the assumption they were voters, and they needed votes to win and take back political power.

Such simple human and political insight seems to have left the stage. But it is vital if conservatism is to stand a chance.

Demonstrating the fallacy of Obamacare is a good place to start. Showing how it cannot work without forcing people to buy sommething they don't want, at prices they cannot easily afford.

[musiclady]

As I said, liberal gobbledy gook I can read and hear anywhere.

I don't need to debate it on a conservative forum.

Liberal's saying that killing one's own baby is having "ultimate control of [a woman's] body," and what follows in point one is proof positive, that he is so indoctrinated that he cannot be salvaged.

Abortion abuses women and a baby is a different human being, not part of the mother's body.

Liberals don't care.

The truth is irrelevant.

Intellectual dishonesty from a leftist, in its most brutal and ugliest form.

Right here on a conservative forum.......

[Cincinnatus]

That isn't easy to do when local schools don't get the funding or the staff to properly educate young black people.

Care to document where the schools are that don't get enough funding or have enough staff "to properly educate young black people."

We’ve put together this infographic that compares the United States’ education spend and performance versus eleven countries.  The U.S. is the clear leader in total annual spending, but ranks 9th in Science performance and 10th in Math.

[emphasis added]

http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

There has never been a time in recent U.S. history when government (federal, state, and local) has stopped "investing" in education. From the 1929-30 school year, the first on which comprehensive data are available, to the 1986-87 school year, total real expenditures per pupil in American public schools rose by 500 percent.(2) More recently, total real expenditures shot up from $2,229 per pupil in 1965-66 to $4,206 per pupil 20 years later, an 89 percent hike. Keep in mind that this increase was after inflation, meaning that actual buying power available to schools almost doubled during that period. Real spending in the 1980s, during all the Reagan-era cuts we hear so much about, actually grew at a faster rate--21 percent between 1981-82 and 1986-87--than in the previous decade, when it increased by "only" 16 percent.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa126.html

[musiclady]

I'm going to disagree. It wasn't much different, when I graduated college in 1973 on the 8 year program. I was married, a father, and a vet. I came from a GOP household but was an idealistic young lliberal--voted for McGovern.

But that quickly changed, because conservatism was making a case. In 1976 Milton Friedman's series was in the public domain.

Conservatism put in an effort to convince, convert, persuade people. I was quickly convinced, by my formal business-economics education, on the job, and by people like Friedman, and Reagan.

Friedman and Reagan didn't win people over by dismissing them, calling them names. They treated them with respect, on the assumption they were voters, and they needed votes to win and take back political power.

Such simple human and political insight seems to have left the stage. But it is vital if conservatism is to stand a chance.

Demonstrating the fallacy of Obamacare is a good place to start. Showing how it cannot work without forcing people to buy sommething they don't want, at prices they cannot easily afford.

Saying that one who espouses liberalism is intellectually dishonest is not calling them a name, t_s.

It's pointing out the truth of their position.

And there are plenty of conservative thinkers out there, intellectually defending conservatism and trying to persuade.  It's no different than it was in the early 70's in that regard.

But if you think that this fellow can be 'persuaded' I wish you luck in doing so.

I want no part of it, because he has already evidenced that he, himself, is only interested in arguments that echo his own liberalism.

[Liberal_Spy]

As I said, liberal gobbledy gook I can read and hear anywhere.

I don't need to debate it on a conservative forum.

Liberal's saying that killing one's own baby is having "ultimate control of [a woman's] body," and what follows in point one is proof positive, that he is so indoctrinated that he cannot be salvaged.

Abortion abuses women and a baby is a different human being, not part of the mother's body.

Liberals don't care.

The truth is irrelevant.

Intellectual dishonesty from a leftist, in its most brutal and ugliest form.

Right here on a conservative forum.......

You demanded for days that I respond to those questions, and when I finally get around to doing it you say "liberal gobbledy gook" and say you don't need to debate it.

[musiclady]

You demanded for days that I respond to those questions, and when I finally get around to doing it you say "liberal gobbledly gook" and say you don't need to debate it.

Write a good term paper.  I'm sure you'll get an A.

[NavyCanDo]

I said that I don't do demonstrations because I find them a waste of time.

If somebody else thinks they're valuable, good for them.

The demonstration at the intersection of Devonshire and State streets in downtown Boston would have been called a waste of time by the Boston Newspaper and by the townspeople if not for 4 of those demostrators lying dead in the street that got peoples attention.  Praying that will never happen in the demostations of today, but there is a spark, you have to be blind not to see it. And with Devine help that little spark will ignite something much bigger, that will God I pray wake people up.

[Rapunzel]

That isn't easy to do when local schools don't get the funding or the staff to properly educate young black people.

That is baloney and liberal hype.  In fact the schools get more funding now than ever and one reason "good" teachers do not teach in black neighhoods is the violence in they are subjected to in these schools... in fact Washington DC belies your entire post here... before Obama was elected they had "school vouchers" in DC and kids who actually WANTED to learn and WANTED to get a good education under the then head of their school district were going to good schools and the taxpayers were paying for them to go... in comes Obama and Democrat control of both the senate and congress and the FIRST thing they did was defund the DC school voucher program and returned their bright black kids to mediocre, failing schools full of drugs and violence.  Some of the parents complained, not enough did and the next election the person who had actually been making progress in DC schools lost her job. 

Nope, the biggest problem in these schools is the problems we have in Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, etc., liberal policies and too many parents who are absentee, druggies, and could care less if their kids go to school - much less a GOOD school... this is where you need to wake up and face up to failing liberal policies in this country. I suggested to you a week ago there is a book on exactly how Detroit went from a thriving city to the ruin that exists today....

I STRONGLY recommend you read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Detroit-An-American-Autopsy-ebook/dp/B008EKOP1I/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381777419&sr=1-1&keywords=detroit+an+american+autopsy

[Rapunzel]

I personally would never try to have my child aborted, but I respect that sometimes people are in situations where they feel that is their only option. I don't think a person should be able to tell a woman "You will have this baby, and there is nothing you can do about it" because I feel there are ALWAYS going to be special cases with extraordinary circumstances to consider. I hate that young people irresponsibly have sex, and then jump straight into having an abortion because they don't want to take care of the baby, but that doesn't result in me thinking abortion should never be an option.

So that means you didn't follow the Gosnell trial, read the transcripts from the Grand Jury or view the photos?

Are you aware that a huge percentage of women who have an abortion are never able to bear a child in the future?   And if a woman doesn't want to care for a baby in the womb so she kills it - then you must be okay with a woman who decides she doesn't want to care, after all,  for her newborn infant in killing it, too?    The decision to have sex comes with responsibilities and that includes taking care of any child resulting from said sexual escapade.   Are not ready or don't want a baby - don't have sex or at least use birth control. Abortion is not birth control.

[happyg]

3.) I can't speak for all liberals, but the ones I talk to are interested in the poor black communities in this country being rehabilitated and helped to get to the point where they don't need so much government assistance. Saying black people should be willing and able to take care of themselves is true, but the fact of the matter is right now a lot of them DO need things like food stamps. Saying they need to be taught to take care of themselves doesn't change the fact that there are young black people starving and dying at this very moment, incapable of getting the life experience needed to become functioning members of society. Part of the reason these communities are so downtrodden is because being poor and making bad decisions is easy to do when that's what you've grown up around, and that is all you know.

When a young black person can't find a job to feed himself/his family, it probably sounds really nice to be able to sell some drugs and live worry free, which is honestly part of the reason I am so against the war on drugs. I feel the illegal drug selling market disproportionately effects and hurts black communities, because people with less money and less opportunities (as they see it) are more apt to start participating in illegal activity. This is how we get to a place where 1 in 3 black men either are or have been in prison.

All city schools here are state-of-the-arts new schools, including Senior HS. They were built to improve images and grades, and haven't done either. I admit, in some areas, the school districts don't have as much money, but there are districts who are productive on less money. Two of my sons coach kids' sports. One son's team is nearly all black. Sometimes, the kids don't show up for practice or even the games. Other times, a few kids will ride bikes from the other side of town to get to the games. Where are the parents? My other son coaches in a township. Most of the kids are white, and you can't find parking places when you go to their games. When parents don't care, neither do their children. It's the exceptions my son works with.

[Liberal_Spy]

That is baloney and liberal hype.  In fact the schools get more funding now than ever and one reason "good" teachers do not teach in black neighhoods is the violence in they are subjected to in these schools... in fact Washington DC belies your entire post here... before Obama was elected they had "school vouchers" in DC and kids who actually WANTED to learn and WANTED to get a good education under the then head of their school district were going to good schools and the taxpayers were paying for them to go... in comes Obama and Democrat control of both the senate and congress and the FIRST thing they did was defund the DC school voucher program and returned their bright black kids to mediocre, failing schools full of drugs and violence.  Some of the parents complained, not enough did and the next election the person who had actually been making progress in DC schools lost her job. 

Nope, the biggest problem in these schools is the problems we have in Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, etc., liberal policies and too many parents who are absentee, druggies, and could care less if their kids go to school - much less a GOOD school... this is where you need to wake up and face up to failing liberal policies in this country. I suggested to you a week ago there is a book on exactly how Detroit went from a thriving city to the ruin that exists today....

I STRONGLY recommend you read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Detroit-An-American-Autopsy-ebook/dp/B008EKOP1I/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381777419&sr=1-1&keywords=detroit+an+american+autopsy

Nearly half of the funding for public schools in the United States is provided through local taxes, generating large differences in funding between wealthy and impoverished communities. Those "good" teachers are scared off by the violence in those areas that comes from a group of people disproportionately effected by the war on drugs. Poor black people grow up around other poor black people that make bad decisions, and the problem continues to perpetuate itself. When a kid has been poor his entire life and a group of kids (a gang) offers to take him along and show him the good life, do you see how that can be so hard for young black people to turn down? They get addicted to the money and lifestyle of doing and selling drugs, and then they ultimately end up rotting in prisons. We need to legalize and regulate drugs, as well as treating junkies for their problem, rather than demonizing them and throwing them in prison.

[Rapunzel]

You are making excuses for the victim mentality and parents and a willing liberal dominated government perpetuating that mentality.   

[aligncare]

Nope, the biggest problem in these schools is the problems we have in Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, etc., liberal policies and too many parents who are absentee, druggies, and could care less if their kids go to school - much less a GOOD school... this is where you need to wake up and face up to failing liberal policies in this country.

Inner cities are proof positive liberalism is bankrupt. Every major metropolitan city is 'rat owned. How well are inner city schools and businesses working out for them?

New York is about to make the same mistake it always makes in the mayoral race by electing one more liberal candidate, Bill di Blasio. What's worse is this guy is not just a liberal, he's a Marxist. New Yorkers are in for a rude awakening when their property, school and sales taxes skyrocket under di Blasio, while criminal gangs roam the streets and squeegee guys again descend on their cars at intersections. Edit: just as they did under Dinkins.

[EC]

You are making excuses for the victim mentality and parents and a willing liberal dominated government perpetuating that mentality.   

Totally agree. 

If growing up poor, the sort of grinding poverty where you have no idea where the next meal is coming from not "I don't have a widescreen TV," is an excuse for gang behavior and rejecting an education, I should be in prison or dead by now. My son in law should be a drug king pin (or dead) by now. Of course, we didn't have food stamps etc then - they were available but my parents would rather have starved than go on the dole. It was seen as something to be ashamed of.

It used to drive me wild when I was teaching. Some kids - predominantly black, I hate to say - simply refused to learn. Full stop. They would attend class and disrupt it until they got thrown out.

[musiclady]

So that means you didn't follow the Gosnell trial, read the transcripts from the Grand Jury or view the photos?

Are you aware that a huge percentage of women who have an abortion are never able to bear a child in the future?   And if a woman doesn't want to care for a baby in the womb so she kills it - then you must be okay with a woman who decides she doesn't want to care, after all,  for her newborn infant in killing it, too?    The decision to have sex comes with responsibilities and that includes taking care of any child resulting from said sexual escapade.   Are not ready or don't want a baby - don't have sex or at least use birth control. Abortion is not birth control.

Unfortunately to the left it is.  Murdering a child to them is still just "removing unwanted tissue" from women and girls.

And to the left abortion is also "healthcare."

That's why the two sides of the debate will never find agreement.  And we cannot concede to their bullying tactics, nor lies either.

The left believes that murdering babies and maiming women is a good thing.

That's an 'irreconcilable difference.'

[Liberal_Spy]

The left believes that murdering babies and maiming women is a good thing.

That's hyperbole if I've ever seen it.

[musiclady]

That's hyperbole if I've ever seen it.

Actually, it's not.

There is nothing that will bring out the fierce anger of the left more than protecting the unborn.

And there is nothing that they will so gleefully overlook than the harm that abortion does women.

What you believe about abortion is the polar opposite of what is true, scientifically and morally.

That's why there is no such thing as "common ground" with a pro-abortion leftist.

[happyg]

I grew up poor, and never considered blaming anyone else, nor giving up.  Instead, I proved I was as good as the rich kids by making good grades, being good at sports, and having a sense of humor, along with being nice to everyone. Those kinds of things rub off on others. I have nine brothers and sisters who did the same thing. My parents taught us to be respectful, and we certainly didn't want to disappoint them.

When the topic of abortion came up, Mom would get upset that someone could even think of killing a baby, let alone actually doing it. She made it clear that each of us were wanted from the time she realized she was pregnant. Baby one came in January 1946, when Mom was 17 1/2. Baby two came in Dec. 1946, when Mom was 18. I'm baby three who came in Dec. 1947, and twins were born in Nov. 1948. That's five kids in two calendar years, yet we were well cared for. She had five more, filling our small house.

Which ones should she have killed by today's standards? The nurses, or the teacher, or social worker? All of us contribute to society, but today, families are paid not to do their share.