Author Topic: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles  (Read 8459 times)

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Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2013, 12:11:48 AM »
When a company making a good ROV eliminates "labor" to the point they are wearing down the workers then it borders on greed. 

When a company making a good ROV eliminates workers in the USA to send work elsewhere at basically slave wages (and yes I've seen the videos of the Chinese labor workers conditions) in order to maximize bonuses for the few at the top. that is greed.

When the entire operation is moved offshore to maximize ROV for stockholders I think that, too, is greed.

++++++++++++++++++++++

When Maytag moved their dishwasher operations from Ohio to Mexico because they could pay 50 cents and hour vs $15.00 an hour I remember saying at the time...okay, but when all the $15.00 an hour jobs are gone - who is going to be able to afford their dishwasher?  As we can see fewer and fewer today CAN afford to buy those dishwashers... reason being the middle class is going away, we are quickly becoming Mexico in the USA with either wealthy or poor.  So, yep, a lot of CEO's and stockholders have grown very rich, but at the same time the middle class is going, going gone....  as a COUNTRY we were better off when we were a balanced society and call me all the names you want, I think the thing that made us what we USED to be was a strong, viable, middle class...  so I ask when only the rich can afford that dishwasher made in Mexico... what then?

Why is cutting costs greed?  And you still haven't answered the question:  what is the difference between profits and greed?  And who decides when cost-cutting goes from smart business into evil greed?

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Sound familiar?  It certainly does to me.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 12:15:10 AM by Oceander »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2013, 12:19:07 AM »
You are confusing "Profit motive" with greed.  They are two different animals.  Profit motive is about making money and growing the company   Growing the company naturally increases stakeholder value.

If a company is in financial trouble then outsourcing will show favorable results for a very short term, long enough for the CEO's who implement this method of cost cutting to collect their golden parachute and make a quick exit before the deterioration resumes...   remember those companies Romney and Bain did this to???  Romney grew rich the companies folded.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2013, 12:33:27 AM »
So then you think Milton Friedman is the last word in economics? Nothing new to discover or learn? You do know that there are many schools of economic thought don't you?

Old Uncle Milty wrote Capitalism and Freedom, but his acolytes, the Chicago Boys, collaborated with the likes of Pinochet. Some say only a brutal dictator like Pinochet could have forced Freidman's economic reforms on Chile.

Never said I thought Uncle Milty was the last word in economics - you did.  Why don't you try - just once - to put down an argument, rather than emotional rhetoric or false words?

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2013, 12:34:49 AM »
You are confusing "Profit motive" with greed.  They are two different animals.  Profit motive is about making money and growing the company   Growing the company naturally increases stakeholder value.

If a company is in financial trouble then outsourcing will show favorable results for a very short term, long enough for the CEO's who implement this method of cost cutting to collect their golden parachute and make a quick exit before the deterioration resumes...   remember those companies Romney and Bain did this to???  Romney grew rich the companies folded.

No I'm not.  You're evading the question.  You said, and I quote: "there is profits and there is greed"

Now, for the love of God, answer one very simple question:  what is the difference between profits and greed?

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2013, 12:38:20 AM »
I do not agree with Obama... I think everyone should be able to earn as much as possible - as long as they earn it honestly.   In earning it a "good" CEO recognizes the value of his labor force, hires good people and pays them accordingly, it is a win-win for everyone and for the country.. there is a finite difference.

To be a little more clear.......


A company has $100 million in sales

The company owns its factory

The company employees 200 people

This means the company has capital

Capital produces the product.

Product produces sales

The workforce is a talent pool

The company uses their talent pool to innovate

With innovation a company invests in technology.

Technology keeps the factory cutting edge

The cutting edge factory has material value.

Material value + capital value = enhanced stock value

Enhanced stock value = an asset to stockholders.

On the other hand:

The company that sells off its means of production
The company outsources manufacturing
Stakeholder value is now diminished in value
CEO's take their: contract guaranteed - bonuses and stock options 
The CEO is the winner, the employees and stakeholders are the losers.

++++++++++++++++++++

If your motive is actually growing a business and accomplishing something you take door one, if your only motive is greed you take door two.

�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2013, 12:49:15 AM »
I do not agree with Obama... I think everyone should be able to earn as much as possible - as long as they earn it honestly.   In earning it a "good" CEO recognizes the value of his labor force, hires good people and pays them accordingly, it is a win-win for everyone and for the country.. there is a finite difference.

To be a little more clear.......


A company has $100 million in sales

The company owns its factory

The company employees 200 people

This means the company has capital

Capital produces the product.

Product produces sales

The workforce is a talent pool

The company uses their talent pool to innovate

With innovation a company invests in technology.

Technology keeps the factory cutting edge

The cutting edge factory has material value.

Material value + capital value = enhanced stock value

Enhanced stock value = an asset to stockholders.

On the other hand:

The company that sells off its means of production
The company outsources manufacturing
Stakeholder value is now diminished in value
CEO's take their: contract guaranteed - bonuses and stock options 
The CEO is the winner, the employees and stakeholders are the losers.

++++++++++++++++++++

If your motive is actually growing a business and accomplishing something you take door one, if your only motive is greed you take door two.



You're so blinkered by ignorance or envy - I can't tell which - that it's shocking.  You and Obama are philosophical siamese twins when it comes to this subject.

Why don't you first try and strip all of the pejorative terms out of your description - remember what democrats do, they inflame emotions to overcome rational thought - and then rewrite your descriptions.

But first, let's deal with your "other hand" because it's so full of falsehoods it's not even funny.

What happens when a company sells off its means of production?  Why, it gets money back - cold, hard cash.  Who owns that money?  Why the owners of the company, that's who.  Who are they?  Why, the shareholders, that's who.  Who profited by that?  Why the shareholders, of course, as it was supposed to be all along.

There is absolutely no diminishment of value - unless you're going to take the position that when management sells off the means of production it's always a fraudulent transfer and the company does not get equal value in return.

Now, let's suppose this company is still going to continue selling the product it historically made in-house.  It's now purchasing the goods at wholesale from another producer, and selling at retail.

What's wrong with that?  Or are you now going to tell me that every merchant, every five-and-dime that buys goods at wholesale from other companies that made the goods, and sells those same goods at retail is somehow evil, greedy, what have you?

In other words, what you are saying is that once a company starts off as a manufacturer it can never, ever, ever become a mere retailer without engaging in evil greedy actions that diminish the value all 'round.

Is that what you're saying?  Because if it is then you're irrational because there is utterly nothing in that process - stripped of your hatred of it - that in the least necessitates a diminishment of value.

Now, answer my question:  what is the difference between profit and greed.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 12:50:00 AM by Oceander »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2013, 01:12:53 AM »
I explained it to you and at this point you are just being argumentative and purposely obtuse and insulting to anyone who disagrees with you. 

And for the record the point you are ignoring and then I am not going to respond again -  Both methods I laid out are legal. One is greedy the other is not...   

Greed is making sure you get the biggest portion of the pie even if no one else gets any pie at all.  You are confusing wealth and greed. You can not be greedy and still get fabulously wealthy. 

Greed applies in many areas.  This week Bruce Willis was kicked off a move because he demanded one million dollars and hour. We have football players falling right and left because frankly they are paid so much they don't know how to handle it, the baseball players with their steroid abuse - their multi-million dollar contracts depend on the very behavior they are now in trouble for...... 

So no I don't agree with Obama and in fact there is no one greedier than he and the Moose... but I think we were a much stronger company when corporations worked to make a profit, showed respect for their employees and rewarded them for a good day or work and everyone got a piece of the pie, the CEO just got a little more than everyone, not the entire pie.

 So agree with me or disagree with me and call me all the names you want, frankly I don't care...
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2013, 01:13:18 AM »
the difference between "Profits and Greed"?

'Profits' is the actual end result after EVERYBODY gets paid.  It's tangible.

'Greed', on the other hand is subjective in nature.

But I suppose it would be considered 'greed' when the impression is that you're sitting on billions of dollars while the American family is in distress.

That said...I hope we all realize that the reason businesses are NOT expanding and rather sitting pat...is that they hope that the Obama nightmare will soon be over and Obamacare is flushed.

THAT'S the only thing holding this country back from a REAL boom.    Companies are scared to death of government regulations and the Holder DOJ.

The only people doing well today are public employees and union members.....ironically because of "greed".

« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 01:13:57 AM by DCPatriot »
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Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2013, 01:19:16 AM »
DC gets it!   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2013, 01:20:27 AM »
the difference between "Profits and Greed"?

'Profits' is the actual end result after EVERYBODY gets paid.  It's tangible.

'Greed', on the other hand is subjective in nature.

But I suppose it would be considered 'greed' when the impression is that you're sitting on billions of dollars while the American family is in distress.

That said...I hope we all realize that the reason businesses are NOT expanding and rather sitting pat...is that they hope that the Obama nightmare will soon be over and Obamacare is flushed.

THAT'S the only thing holding this country back from a REAL boom.    Companies are scared to death of government regulations and the Holder DOJ.

The only people doing well today are public employees and union members.....ironically because of "greed".



So who gets to decide when you've earned enough profit and are simply being greedy?  Because that is the necessary logical conclusion to this argument.

Quite frankly, I agree that on this point there is a difference between the folks here and Obama - Obama is honest enough to admit that this position requires that someone make that decision, and stop people from being greedy - from making too much money - and is honest enough to admit that it is only the government that is big enough to oppose big companies and force them to stop being greedy.  Would that the crypto-fascists here would be as honest.


So, here's the follow on, now that we seem to be unable to unpack the difference between profits and greed any further:

Who gets to decide when some particular company or individual has gone from making a profit to being greedy?  And who gets to do something about it when that happens?

These are not mere trivialities; they are absolutely necessary corollaries to the proposition that there is a difference between making a profit and being greedy.  Unless, of course, the solution is to simply sit around and fume in impotent rage because we haven't the courage of our convictions to take the next step and prevent the evil we've hypothesized from happening.

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2013, 01:22:10 AM »
DC gets it!   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You still haven't answered my question.  However, since you obviously cannot do so, let's take your position to its next logical step.  Since there is a difference - by hypothesis - between making a profit and being greedy, who gets to decide when any one particular person has gone from making an acceptable profit to being greedy?  Who gets to decide at what point a particular person has "made enough money?"

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2013, 01:32:39 AM »
You know, I suppose to a degree it would be guided by a persons conscience.   Speaking for myself, if I was a CEO making a very nice living, living in a nice home, in a nice neighborhood, able to take nice vacations, send my kids to private schools I think I would realize I did not get there in a vacuum, that the people who worked for me helped get me there and as a result I would want to treat them right, pay them well and keep them as good and loyal employees.  But that is just me... a lot of people want the above and much, much more and do not care who they step on or destroy to get there.. .even if it is the country that has been so good to them that gave them the ability to get to the top...  I will tell you this no matter how wealthy you become, if you lose out on a relationship with your wife and kids along the way then you are still the loser in the long run, because when you die the important thing is not how big your mansion or private jet, but how many people loved and respected you.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2013, 01:36:07 AM »
Oceander....you should know I consider you a FRiend.

But I must say, that the irony is killing me....you chastising a newer poster to the forum....who uses paragraphs by God!

You come right up to the line where you would accuse him of being a liberal troll...and here you are saying that there comes a time .....when you have too much money.

Oceander....seriously....WTF?   :thud:
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Offline EC

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2013, 04:18:46 AM »
Profit vs greed? It's in the eye of the beholder. Simple as that.

Take Bill Gates, for example. Through a combination of luck, skill, and shrewdness he is basically worth all of the money. The luck aspect isn't my assessment - it is his own. His company - on his direction - is somewhat aggressive at squashing competition. Remember the Netscape/ IE war? He goes all out to maximise profit for his company, to the borderline of ethics and a bit beyond.
Yet is he, personally. greedy? No, he is not. He gives more away in a year than I will make in my lifetime. No conditions, no name recognition in a lot of cases, he just does it.

Profit is getting the biggest bang for your buck you can. Greed is keeping it all and squeezing every penny out by whatever mean necessary, including screwing over your own employees. That is my definition.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #89 on: August 10, 2013, 07:21:29 AM »

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #90 on: August 10, 2013, 12:02:26 PM »
Why is cutting costs greed?  And you still haven't answered the question:  what is the difference between profits and greed?  And who decides when cost-cutting goes from smart business into evil greed?

"At a certain point I do think you've made enough money"

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Sound familiar?  It certainly does to me.

There aren't too many people in the world that can make a fortune independent of the help (labor) of others. When someone or a corporation amasses a fortune while not paying those who helped create that fortune enough to keep body and soul alive and well, then we could say greed is an issue here.

The businesses Rapunzel and I are remembering considered their employees stake holders, along with share holders, who had a vested interest in seeing the company be successful, not as a necessary evil.

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #91 on: August 10, 2013, 12:06:51 PM »
You know, I suppose to a degree it would be guided by a persons conscience.   Speaking for myself, if I was a CEO making a very nice living, living in a nice home, in a nice neighborhood, able to take nice vacations, send my kids to private schools I think I would realize I did not get there in a vacuum, that the people who worked for me helped get me there and as a result I would want to treat them right, pay them well and keep them as good and loyal employees.  But that is just me...

What you describe is the essence of the "rising tide that lifts all boats".

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2013, 03:23:17 PM »
What you describe is the essence of the "rising tide that lifts all boats".

I like that analogy...  simple and to the point.

If you read the opinion article I posted last night it refers to Mark Zuckerberg saying he is worth $16 billion (not a small fortune by any means) and he has now formed "Fwd.us to lobby for the Senate immigration bill, which would expand his ability to hire at low wages high-skilled labor from abroad."

Okay.  Though there has been some question that Facebook was completely his idea it is still his baby and he earned this money.  Good for him. 

However, I think most of us could live quite nicely on $16 billion, so I wonder why does he feel the need to undercut the US economy by pushing through Amnesty so he can personally grow even wealthier by hiring cheap labor and pushing the pay-scale downward in the country that gave him the opportunities to become what he has become?  There is plenty of American-trained computer geniuses, it is not like there is not domestic labor available.  So my issue (unlike the OWS crowd) is not that he is a "1 percenter" it is that he doesn't want others to have the same opportunities and is working to see to it they don't have the opportunities.

There-in may be some of the difference between the two men I portrayed above.  They came from humble roots, had to work hard to first get their educations, served their country in the wars at the time, came home scrimped and grew their companies and never forgot the people who worked for them were a big part of their success.  The also came through the FDR era and saw the damages done long-term with is policies. 

These new young and very wealthy entrepreneurs who have come out of Silicon Valley are liberal to the bone and they are the first really wealthy of the "me" generation, ergo their support of Obama, blindness to what he and his policies are doing to this country and willingness to do by whatever means possible to help him accomplish his destruction. 

This is not the America that made this country great, it is the America that is on a slide toward being what I predicted when O was running for President - Mexico.  A country with more millionaires per-capita than anyone and the flip side being poor and uneducated... no middle class... Some of us still have a remaining appreciation for a middle class and the strength and stability it brings to a country.  In a way this reminds me of the Gatsby generation and we know how that ended.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #93 on: August 12, 2013, 12:06:32 PM »
Never said I thought Uncle Milty was the last word in economics - you did.  Why don't you try - just once - to put down an argument, rather than emotional rhetoric or false words?

FYI, a sentence followed by a question mark is not a statement.


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