Author Topic: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles  (Read 8455 times)

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Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2013, 05:53:31 PM »
This is what is screwing me up. What, exactly, is fair?

It's what always screws things up and why the democrats manage to get away with fascism when they dress it up in "fairness."  E.g., Obastard keeps talking about making the rich pay their "fair share" - well, unless we know what Obastard means by "fair" we have no idea what he really means just by those words.  The word "fair" by itself is meaningless.

Offline EC

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2013, 05:59:53 PM »
Yet the concept of "fair" seems to be built in to us. How many times you heard a kid mutter "It's not fair?" It is there. The concept of self worth vs. what needs doing or what happens. I just get stuck on where the balance is, as it seems to be a sliding scale, based on the actual situation.
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Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2013, 09:56:12 PM »
So now there's something fundamentally wrong/suspect about free market economics, eh?  Are you really going to let yourself be led down that rosy little path?

The erosion of the middle class has precious little to do with actual free market economics, BTW.

Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson


Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2013, 09:04:06 AM »
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson



Your point being?  (granting you the benefit of the doubt that you might actually have a point).

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2013, 11:32:58 AM »

So now we're going to start delving into the mythical fantasy world of price-gouging and wage-slavery, are we?

What's sorely lacking here is any real analysis of why this is the current state of affairs.  First off, let's dismiss any fantasies of price-gouging; the US is, at least for the time being, still a free market economy and - other than health insurance - we generally aren't forced to buy too many products and - with some notable exceptions - the governments (federal or state) don't generally engage in rampant price-setting.  It therefore necessarily follows that the revenues these companies earn - and it is, after all, from revenues whence floweth the compensation of CEOs - is a fair measure of the real market value of the goods or services these companies sell.  In other words, these companies haven't been "stealing" or price-gouging, they've simply been selling goods and services at prices people are voluntarily willing to pay.

Therefore, these companies' revenues are for the most part legitimately earned.

Now let's move on to the mythical land of wage-slavery.  Are these companies really abusing the people who choose to work for them, paying them subpar wages?  So far as I know, people in the US are still free to come and go as they please and to work, or not work, for whomever will hire them, which means that if the employees at these companies are dissatisfied with their pay they are free to find better paying jobs.  As such, the claim that these companies are abusing their employees by paying subpar wages is rather weak.  But still, let's string the argument along a little and throw in that fave bogie man, economic necessity:  the argument goes that people have to have some sort of work to pay their living expenses (true enough) and so these companies, knowing that, effectively indenture their employees to their service by paying them just enough to survive on, but not enough to do any better because the alternative is getting fired and having nothing.

The fantasy, mythology shoe is on the other foot.

Remember the mortgage crisis and bank bailout? How many bank CEOs, the people who brought not only their businesses, but the world to its economic knees, found themselves out of a job, or even with reduced pay and benefits, or even had to give up their bonuses?

Remember Carly Fiorina? She pretty effectively trashed HP, and got kicked out; however, she retained her multi-million dollar parting gift. (How many people do you know that can fail, causing thousands of people to lose their jobs, and walk away with millions?)

I personally know another CEO who led the corporation over the cliff causing thousands of people to become unemployed, and who walked away as a member of the 1%.

We find evidence that industry and size adjusted CEO pay is negatively related to future shareholder wealth changes for periods up to five years after sorting on pay. For example, firms that pay their CEOs in the top ten percent of pay earn negative abnormal returns over the next five years of approximately -13%. The effect is stronger for CEOs who receive higher incentive pay relative to their peers. Our results are consistent with high-pay induced CEO overconfidence and investor overreaction towards firms with high paid CEOs.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/CEOperformance122509.pdf

Wage slavery a myth? Maybe in the late 90s, but certainly since then it's been the reality. Actually it's been the reality since the 70s with the late 90s being the exception.

When employers can import cheap labor, and export jobs to cheap labor third world countries the law of supply and demand has been nullified.

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2013, 11:37:37 AM »
Your point being?  (granting you the benefit of the doubt that you might actually have a point).

Meaning that the Frenchman was correct.

By and large, American corporations have abandoned the American worker.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2013, 04:39:18 PM »
Silverhair, I "suspect" you are probably closer to my age and like myself you have seen the before and the after in this country.    Heck I remember when the founder/CEO of our fortune 500 Orange County, CA company actually used to go around handing out paychecks so he could maintain a certain amount of contact with his employees... over the years the unions tried really hard to break into the company and each time was voted down resoundingly... we didn't make "union" wages, but the benefits were always generous - health care, good vacation policy, everyone got a yearly bonus - some more than others, based on performance - we also had a good company social system with everything from a ski club to women's club, bowling club, golf club, etc., the company actually encouraged it because it created good morale.. today that same company is still a major corp, but the stories we retirees from there hear tells us it is nowhere near the company we all loved working for.. and BTW had a very low turnover rate... they also helped pay for furthering education and much more....... when one division was down they were usually carried until things turned around by another division  - this changed when we were bought out (for a very short while) by SmithKline... After a couple of years of SK messing things up the founder re-purchased the company.....    I worked for them at a very good time, would not want to work for them today... 
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2013, 07:24:53 PM »
Meaning that the Frenchman was correct.

By and large, American corporations have abandoned the American worker.

Since when are businesses supposed to be charities, or play the role of in loco parens to grown adults?  What you're babbling on about is nothing more than precisely the sort of class/caste social structure that those who founded the US fled - because they wanted the freedom to succeed - or fail - on their own merits - and smacks of noblesse oblige.

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2013, 07:27:45 PM »
*  *  *

When employers can import cheap labor, and export jobs to cheap labor third world countries the law of supply and demand has been nullified.


With all due respect, there is only one place where this sort of remark should be found, and that is DU - or some other place where liberals grunt and emote.  I am ashamed that you would harbor that sort of sentiment.

You need to take some refresher courses in Econ 101.  Milton Friedman - you do know who he is, don't you - wrote some books that would be rather edifying as well.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 07:28:12 PM by Oceander »

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2013, 08:55:35 PM »
Silverhair, I "suspect" you are probably closer to my age and like myself you have seen the before and the after in this country.    Heck I remember when the founder/CEO of our fortune 500 Orange County, CA company actually used to go around handing out paychecks so he could maintain a certain amount of contact with his employees... over the years the unions tried really hard to break into the company and each time was voted down resoundingly... we didn't make "union" wages, but the benefits were always generous - health care, good vacation policy, everyone got a yearly bonus - some more than others, based on performance - we also had a good company social system with everything from a ski club to women's club, bowling club, golf club, etc., the company actually encouraged it because it created good morale.. today that same company is still a major corp, but the stories we retirees from there hear tells us it is nowhere near the company we all loved working for.. and BTW had a very low turnover rate... they also helped pay for furthering education and much more....... when one division was down they were usually carried until things turned around by another division  - this changed when we were bought out (for a very short while) by SmithKline... After a couple of years of SK messing things up the founder re-purchased the company.....    I worked for them at a very good time, would not want to work for them today...

Sounds like we're contemporaries.

We also had a local corporation that became a global, cutting edge technology company with much the same policies that you describe. Not only did employees thank their lucky stars when they were hired, but were happy to spend their careers there, and then their kids would go to work there too. They had a reputation for training, promoting from within, and never laying anybody off. When times were tough, management cut back on their own perks and benefits.

Like your company, unions never had a chance, employees were too happy, and too loyal.

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2013, 09:02:08 PM »
Since when are businesses supposed to be charities, or play the role of in loco parens to grown adults?  What you're babbling on about is nothing more than precisely the sort of class/caste social structure that those who founded the US fled - because they wanted the freedom to succeed - or fail - on their own merits - and smacks of noblesse oblige.

Really? Pray tell, what was the colonist's position on the East India Company (think Boston Tea Party)?

What role did corporations play in our early days as a nation? Under what rules did they operate?

What role did Hamilton think the government should play in the development of US industries?

Offline silverhair

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2013, 09:14:04 PM »
With all due respect, there is only one place where this sort of remark should be found, and that is DU - or some other place where liberals grunt and emote.  I am ashamed that you would harbor that sort of sentiment.

You need to take some refresher courses in Econ 101.  Milton Friedman - you do know who he is, don't you - wrote some books that would be rather edifying as well.

So then you think Milton Friedman is the last word in economics? Nothing new to discover or learn? You do know that there are many schools of economic thought don't you?

Old Uncle Milty wrote Capitalism and Freedom, but his acolytes, the Chicago Boys, collaborated with the likes of Pinochet. Some say only a brutal dictator like Pinochet could have forced Freidman's economic reforms on Chile.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2013, 09:59:17 PM »
Really? Pray tell, what was the colonist's position on the East India Company (think Boston Tea Party)?

What role did corporations play in our early days as a nation? Under what rules did they operate?

What role did Hamilton think the government should play in the development of US industries?

There is a lot of excellent examples of men who came from humble roots and built substantial companies where they actually considered their employees as part of their success.... one was

Henry Ford 

 - he developed and manufactured the first automobile that many middle class Americans could afford to buy.

 -  he is credited with developing mass production of inexpensive goods coupled with high wages for workers.
 
 - he  believed consumerism was the key to peace.

 - he was committed to using both technical and business innovations to keep costs down and product affordable...

 - he started a franchise system to place Ford dealerships throughout the USA and most of the world...

 - he designed the structure of his company to always have a "Ford" running the company so they would always remember where the company came from....



and Doctor Beckman -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Orville_Beckman

 Doctor Beckman founded the company I retired from... he used to love to tell the story of he and Mabel, his wife, coming across country in his Model A and the tires kept failing, but they finally made it to California where with a degree and a shoestring he started what became a multi-national corporation......


While he was at Caltech they allowed him to do some outside consulting and he developed the pH Meter for Sunkist Corp and from this invention the company was formed in Pasadena, CA.  Then he developed the Spectrophotometer as part of a top secret project for producing rubber during WWII.. Next in the mid-50's he established the Shockley Semiconductor Laboratory to fund  Shockley's research into semiconductor technology.  Shockley's aging mother lived in Palo Alto, Shockley established the laboratory in nearby Mountain View, California. Thus, Silicon Valley was born... and eventually the Palo Alto division of Beckman Instruments... creating even more jobs....  I don't remember the total number of employees we had world-wide at one point,  but it was a lot of people with multiple divisions. I was in the Scientific instruments division.  The main headquarters, until recently, remained in California and the lions-share of the employees were in the USA... 

None of us considered our jobs there as charity. We all worked hard and loved where we worked and what we did... and without outsourcing all our jobs to China.

The Beckman Foundation has, to date, donated over $400 million to charity and organizations - much going to grants for science and engineering studies, they helped found a high school in his name in Irvine, He is also the namesake of the Beckman Institute, Beckman Auditorium, Beckman Laboratory of Behavioral Sciences, and Beckman Laboratory of Chemical Synthesis at the California Institute of Technology. He was inducted into the Junior Achievement U.S. Business Hall of Fame in 1985. In 1987, he was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame, was awarded the Public Welfare Medal from the National Academy of Sciences in 1999, was also inducted into the Alpha Chi Sigma Hall of Fame in 1996.  BTW he was a Republican... I think almost everyone was a Republican in that company....

And amazing he did all this keeping his company onshore... we were always working together, Accounting, Manufacturing, Engineering, etc., to come up with methods of reducing manufacturing cost and increasing productivity without cutting quality..  One of the things we developed right around the time I retired was the DNA sequencer... Beckman was on the leading technological edge in DNA development...one of the last products my husband - who was a Industrial/Graphic designer in the engineering department did was a cartoon slide show that explained what in the world DNA was...

Oh and I almost forgot.  In my senior high school class to graduate we had to take and pass Econ 101 (I got an A).  Our teacher, Mr. Clamp used to tell the class how stupid we were and that the holy grail of jobs in OC (at the time) was whether Beckman Instruments would hire you.  Years later I always wanted to go back and tell him I made a career there.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 10:21:40 PM by Rapunzel »
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2013, 10:53:54 PM »
Really? Pray tell, what was the colonist's position on the East India Company (think Boston Tea Party)?

What role did corporations play in our early days as a nation? Under what rules did they operate?

What role did Hamilton think the government should play in the development of US industries?

Pray tell what the f*ck are you gassing on about now?  You make some wonderful, comfy-feely, emotionally wrenching statements, but you have yet to provide a shred of argument to back your claims up.  You sound nothing so much as if you'd taken a page out of the democrats' Alinsky playbook.

Quite honestly, given your apparent predilections I'm really surprised you bother spending any time here; economic paternalism is the bailiwick of the democrats, a'la Obamacare.  You'd feel much more philosophically comfortable over at DU.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2013, 11:01:24 PM »
That is pretty harsh, O just because you disagree with him...
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2013, 11:02:32 PM »
That is pretty harsh, O just because you disagree with him...

I'll second that!  :nono:
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Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2013, 11:10:27 PM »

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2013, 11:16:11 PM »
That is pretty harsh, O just because you disagree with him...

I'm sorry, but I had thought that at least the folks here had learned a few basic lessons on economics - which, I naively assumed, was one of the big reasons we oppose Obamacare - and I see no reason to suffer lightly fools who espouse patently false theories of economics and labor, theories that are predominantly the purview of the left, and which are generally just rhetorical cover for their real aims:  fascist, paternalistic control over every detail of everyone's lives.  To me, harshness is justified.

I am amazed that none here seem to realize that the arguments you're putting forward here essentially justify the sort of overarching economic paternalism that socialists - leftists of all stripes - have espoused, including Obama and the democrats, and in particular justify things like Obamacare.

Think about it:  the gist of your argument is that the individual is helpless against the greedy depredations of big companies and are being victimized by those big companies.  Well, the current health insurance/health care system involves individuals who must rely on big insurance companies to pay for their medical care, medical care they cannot get otherwise, generally speaking.  Under your argument, big companies abuse helpless individuals in order to earn as big a profit as possible, which motivation applies just as much in the realm of denying individuals' claims for insurance coverage as it does in reducing the wages paid to workers; therefore, under your argument, it is precisely the insurance companies that must be controlled in order to protect helpless individuals, and it is only the government that is big enough to control the insurance companies.

Hence, under your argument, Obamacare is necessary in order to protect helpless individuals from the depredations of the big insurance companies.

Q.E.D.

So, are you in favor of economic paternalism, or are you in favor of repealing Obamacare?  You can't have both.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 11:25:28 PM by Oceander »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2013, 11:17:16 PM »
No one here is preaching charity or paternalism.  We are saying there is profits and there is greed and the country as a whole did a whole lot better when companies concentrated on profits.  The greed did not start until the 80's when they started basing executive compensation of how much they could wring out of the company - that was the premise of Welch sending GE offshore.  And frankly, as someone who has worked in industry and before and during the changes I am in a position to know the difference.. and as someone who ran the accounting department I know what the bottom lines were... the stockholders back then were pleased... the attitude you are taking here is like you SS attitude... you wanna see people who want handouts.. watch the special on Fox tonight those are the people you should be aiming your venom toward...   and by the way when did you work for a major corporation? 

And I oppose Obamacare because  it is a mandatory GOVERNMENT-controlled program.  Our company always provided us with topnotch health insurance. I have had health insurance since I was 18 years old. It was one of the benefits we received working for a GOOD employer. 

For some reason you seem to think it is a good idea for companies to send all their labor offshore and undercut the wage base in this country.  I don't agree.. and in fact more and more are finding ways to improve production so they can manufacture stateside, again.. Frankly there was a time made in the USA actually meant something  - and I'm not speaking about the Union Label.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 11:20:42 PM by Rapunzel »
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2013, 11:18:47 PM »
Slightly off topic, but I tried a McDonald's Chicken Wrap tonight.  Pretty darn good! 

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2013, 11:23:57 PM »
Slightly off topic, but I tried a McDonald's Chicken Wrap tonight.  Pretty darn good!

Tell me it was the Sweet Chili with crunchy chicken (as opposed to grilled).    :patriot:
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Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2013, 11:28:04 PM »
No one here is preaching charity or paternalism.  We are saying there is profits and there is greed and the country as a whole did a whole lot better when companies concentrated on profits.  The greed did not start until the 80's when they started basing executive compensation of how much they could wring out of the company - that was the premise of Welch sending GE offshore.  And frankly, as someone who has worked in industry and before and during the changes I am in a position to know the difference.. and as someone who ran the accounting department I know what the bottom lines were... the stockholders back then were pleased... the attitude you are taking here is like you SS attitude... you wanna see people who want handouts.. watch the special on Fox tonight those are the people you should be aiming your venom toward...   and by the way when did you work for a major corporation? 

And I oppose Obamacare because  it is a mandatory GOVERNMENT-controlled program.  Our company always provided us with topnotch health insurance. I have had health insurance since I was 18 years old. It was one of the benefits we received working for a GOOD employer. 

For some reason you seem to think it is a good idea for companies to send all their labor offshore and undercut the wage base in this country.  I don't agree.. and in fact more and more are finding ways to improve production so they can manufacture stateside, again.. Frankly there was a time made in the USA actually meant something  - and I'm not speaking about the Union Label.

My dear, you are preaching paternalism - of the rankest sort - and it is mind-blowing that you cannot even see it for what it is.

Let's start with your first sentence:  what is the difference between profits and greed?  That is a very simple, straightforward question, and should admit of a straightforward answer.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2013, 11:47:09 PM »
Since you are not old enough to have been around when CEO's actually worked for a salary instead of huge bonuses I don't think you have the slightest understanding of how the country actually functioned back then compared to now...    Not to mention I don't remember you ever saying you worked for a large Fortune 500 Company... Aren't you a tax lawyer?  and interesting that you view employees of companies the way you have stated here...  we all work for someone, even those of us who are self-employed... because to be self-employed someone has to pay for our services, be it a large corporation where we receive a salary or self employment....
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Oceander

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2013, 11:54:36 PM »
Since you are not old enough to have been around when CEO's actually worked for a salary instead of huge bonuses I don't think you have the slightest understanding of how the country actually functioned back then compared to now...    Not to mention I don't remember you ever saying you worked for a large Fortune 500 Company... Aren't you a tax lawyer?  and interesting that you view employees of companies the way you have stated here...  we all work for someone, even those of us who are self-employed... because to be self-employed someone has to pay for our services, be it a large corporation where we receive a salary or self employment....

When one doesn't have an answer, one usually engages in evasion.  I would suggest that you go re-read the recent post about that book from some democrat party activists about how to use emotion to win political battles; if you've an ounce of honesty you'll see your arguments here reflected in the tactics described in that book.

Now, let's get back to the task at hand:  what is the difference between profits and greed?  If it's so blindingly obvious, then it should be a piece of cake for you to educate me on the difference.

What is the difference between profits and greed?

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Price of Big Mac Could Rise by 68 Cents If Minimum Wage Doubles
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2013, 12:05:53 AM »
When one doesn't have an answer, one usually engages in evasion.  I would suggest that you go re-read the recent post about that book from some democrat party activists about how to use emotion to win political battles; if you've an ounce of honesty you'll see your arguments here reflected in the tactics described in that book.

Now, let's get back to the task at hand:  what is the difference between profits and greed?  If it's so blindingly obvious, then it should be a piece of cake for you to educate me on the difference.

What is the difference between profits and greed?

When a company making a good ROV eliminates "labor" to the point they are wearing down the workers then it borders on greed. 

When a company making a good ROV eliminates workers in the USA to send work elsewhere at basically slave wages (and yes I've seen the videos of the Chinese labor workers conditions) in order to maximize bonuses for the few at the top. that is greed.

When the entire operation is moved offshore to maximize ROV for stockholders I think that, too, is greed.

++++++++++++++++++++++

When Maytag moved their dishwasher operations from Ohio to Mexico because they could pay 50 cents and hour vs $15.00 an hour I remember saying at the time...okay, but when all the $15.00 an hour jobs are gone - who is going to be able to afford their dishwasher?  As we can see fewer and fewer today CAN afford to buy those dishwashers... reason being the middle class is going away, we are quickly becoming Mexico in the USA with either wealthy or poor.  So, yep, a lot of CEO's and stockholders have grown very rich, but at the same time the middle class is going, going gone....  as a COUNTRY we were better off when we were a balanced society and call me all the names you want, I think the thing that made us what we USED to be was a strong, viable, middle class...  so I ask when only the rich can afford that dishwasher made in Mexico... what then?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 12:06:48 AM by Rapunzel »
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776


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